If it walks like a duck, it’s probably a horse who shouldn’t be bred!
Aug 15 2007
The original post: I have a pony that I would like to have bred but don’t know what I should breed her to. She is 12hh and crossed with many breeds. She is mostly arab and welsh. I would want to breed for more size but I don’t know if it should be to a chunky quarter horse or something like an arabian (finer boned). Any suggustions would be great.
Kudos to the forum this came from, as most respondents correctly suggested she should not be bred at all, and gave excellent reasons. Obviously, the front end here JUMPS out at us. I like to use the pictures of my old Quarter Horse, Mike (below), for commentary on toeing out, because I thought he was the grand prize award winner. But this pony has got him beat by a country mile. Very honestly, I am wondering if she was a humane case early on? I rarely see something this narrow and crooked that did not suffer from early malnutrition.
Of course, pony owner got offended and announced that “Well the truth is her legs don’t naturally point out. I was concerned about this a while back and when I asked my farrier about it he showed me that shes just holding them that way because its more comfortable.” Okaaaay. No, they DO go there naturally, sunshine…she’s holding them that way because that is how she is built. I have no doubt it would be uncomfortable for her to point them straight forward, but if you’re trying to say the farrier said a straight legged horse was standing this way for comfort’s sake, either he’s blowing smoke up your ass or you’re blowing it up ours.
Ah well, good advice was given and no doubt will be totally ignored. ‘Cause we all know the world needs more small grade ponies with the front end of Donald Duck!
Here’s why this front leg conformation is a problem. For one thing, splay footed horses are prone to interfering when they travel. This means that their feet will strike each other, often resulting in coronet band injuries or stumbling. Second, the splay footed horse is prone to both splints and tendon injuries because of the twisting motion caused every time that crooked limb hits the ground. Finally, they are more likely to develop sidebone and ringbone issues. This is just not a front end that is built for heavy use. The horse on the left stayed amazingly sound and we like to joke it is because he sold his soul to Satan. 
Suffice it to say, he was a bad little Quarter Horse in his youth and, fortunately for him, reformed with age. Most importantly, he was a gelding and never passed that front end (or his various other conformational flaws!) on to future generations – a fact that I am sure makes AQHA breeders everywhere sigh in great relief!
I get a lot of e-mail from people asking me to explain certain conformational faults. Let me direct you to some great resources online:
Here are some pages with diagrams of common problems:
http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Conformation/BodyParts.htm (scroll down to see them)
http://www.horseinfo.com/info/faqs/faqconformQ4.html
Here’s a more in-depth guide that explains how conformation relates to lameness – go to the Google Book Search
page and then search for “Horseowner’s Guide to Lameness.” This is written by a veterinarian named Ted Stashak, who is a genius as far as I am concerned. I particularly like his comment about evaluating conformation – “Wildly colored horses and those with dramatic limb markings can result in visual distortion and inaccurate conclusions.” Boy, I’m surprised some of these color breeders don’t have a hit out on Dr. Stashak!
Here’s a good test of what you know about conformation. These are some “conformation clinic” articles online – see if you can place them the same way the author/judge did. Remember especially with #3 that you are evaluating for a specific discipline - if I hadn’t thought about that, I would have gotten it wrong.
Tomorrow, I think we are going to have to talk about the NFQHA – because any organization that brags that it is promoting versatility while simultaneously bragging that it does not allow English events, does not offer Western Horsemanship, and brags about the fact that the rider is never judged in any way is just asking to be a target of this blog. I mean, why don’t you just call yourselves the National Show Coalition of Riders Who Suck? Can I design the logo, pleeeease?
121 comments to “If it walks like a duck, it’s probably a horse who shouldn’t be bred!”
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yankeestyle2, I have a question about your post. When people talk about collection, the picture I have is of a horse that is engaging the hindquarters and shifting his weight toward the rear. I am having trouble visualizing a horse being capable of both shifting his weight to the rear and maintaining the headset and type of movement required for QH WP classes. It seems like those actions are mutually exclusive. Do you have any links to pictures I could look at that illustrate what you are saying?
Back in the 70′s I owned and occasionally showed a nice little mare who was exactly what you say a good WP horse should be: “round, holds its frame, & moves in a collected or “cadenced ” manor.” However, she did not come close to having the headset I see in QP WP classes today. I don’t think I could ever have gotten that QH WP level headset without letting her weight drop to her forehand.
I’m not trying to start an argument, I’m genuinely curious about what you said and want to make sure I understand it.
wow… that has to be the most splay-footed horse I’ve ever seen. I showed that picture to a friend of mine who happened to be standing here, and the first thing she said was ‘What’s wrong with it’s legs?’ And we’re talking about a person who knows nothing about horses.
Thanks for the links to the conformation tests, it was interesting to test my skills at that kind of thing. Reminds me of when I used to be in 4-H and did horse judging events.
GUNNERHORSE – Thank you for your response. The problem I have with specialization is the extreme examples (some of which are world class in their field). Those involved with some of those specialized horses are admitting to “issues” that have appeared due to the intense linebreeding that has produced these horses. Some of those cutting horses aren’t even 14 hands tall. They lack substance, bone, and pretty much resemble a mustang. There isn’t a one of them that could represent the breed in a halter class. (I’ve said it before, I’m not a huge fan of the current halter horse types). The same can be said of the WP horses, many of which I’ve seen who are world class horses in their field. Many have very sickle hocks, very narrow up front, neck set way too low, no hip to speak of, and just plain lacking in substance and class. They don’t look like QHs any more. Neither do the cutters. That’s what I’m talking about when I say that specialization is detrimental to the breed. There is nothing to choose from to breed versatile horses without these “issues”.
collection and cadence are utterly different concepts, and i have never seen a QH move with either. produce a picture of a western horse showing self carriage and ill eat my own arse.
collection isnt going slow. hanging your head to your knees like a dope fiend isnt round. following a pattern is NOT a dressage test. its called a test because its a test of principles, not patterns. of physical development, not tricks.
“When people talk about collection, the picture I have is of a horse that is engaging the hindquarters and shifting his weight toward the rear. I am having trouble visualizing a horse being capable of both shifting his weight to the rear and maintaining the headset and type of movement required for QH WP classes. It seems like those actions are mutually exclusive”
mulerider, you are 100% correct. the aims of dressage and of western riding are at absolute odds.
http://www.dressageworld.de/
dressurgeschichte/1/12a.jpg
diagram of the “bow of tension” which defines collection. show me a QH doing this, or anything like it. i have my arse-eating spoon at the ready.
Forthefutureofthebreed,
I would call that over-specialization. When I say specialist or breeding for an event I am refering to crossing 2 horses that excel in that event. If you want a Morgan to do CDE then breed a Morgan that is good at CDE to another who is also good at CDE. I also believe that performance will, most of the time, lead to a well made horse. You don’t see too many poorly made horses at the top levels in performance sports. When I say performance I mean sports that are not subjective. That’s why I like jumpers instead of hunters. No way a judge can play favorites in the jumper world. The clock and the poles don’t lie. Hunter class is all about looks. Breeding for looks without function is dangerous. Look at the AKC. I’m a Border Collie person and I cringe when I think of the AKC taking in BCs. Right now BCs are bred as working animals but when the AKC takes over you’ll be able to register pups just cause mom and dad have papers. You have to have both form and function in my book.
agree with life like etc. i have never seen a western horse in collection, and to be honest i have seen horses in the highest level dressage in europe that are not in collection. sometimes i think peeps get mesmerised by high front leg action!
I’ll be the voice of dissent. I see nothing wrong with breeding horses to become the top athlete in one performance endeavor (and I dont’ consider WP a performance endeavor, at least not w/ QHs. The reason I got out of the breed was actually the halter and WP horses). Cutting is a performance endeavor, as is reining I suppose (I personally find it weird, but that is jsut me), as are most events, and I see nothing wrong with breeding a good reining or cutting horse horse (i.e. Topsail Whiz, 14 hands of a reining machine, to a Shining Spark daughter.. Or Pepto to a Smart Chic Olena daughter). In Arabians (which is what I’ve switched to), there is a lot of different styles, but the core type is maintained (though on the halter horses, it is exagerrated a lot, especially by the way they present them. Some of them look really odd when they are shown, you’d be surprised what they look like in the stall or pasture
). There are several different disciplines in the Arabian breed, so many that they have 3 different National Shows to showcase all of them (Sport horse, youth and Nationals) that all last 2 weeks or more. You can find the high stepping English (personally, I find the English classes for a QH are kind of a joke. I can only imagine how the SB and Morgan people laugh at it), WP (where the horses have a natural headset and don’t look like they are burying there head in the dirt), Reining, Cutting, Jumping, Halter, Hunter Pleasure and Hack, etc. And one horse won’t do all of those well. I’d rather have a horse that can do 1 or 2 of those well, than one that can do all of them in a mediocre manner. My neighbor’s colt is 4 now, and he’s doing well in Dressage, Reining, and Halter (and scored really well for a horse with only 120 days on him), but it’d be asinine to expect him to go out and win in Jumping and Park too.
For a moment I thought I’d found that duck-footed pony on a forum, but it just turned out to be her twin!
Fortunately this pony’s owner has yet to enquire about breeding.
The point at which I am trying to make & I’ll even admit that I’ve gotten a little off the beaten path with my explanation, is that western pleasure horses do not get the credit that is due to them. They are no longer what they used to be…we no longer go around the arena rolling peanuts with our horses noses & four beating with so much lack of impulsion that you’d swear our horses only had one leg that they were bouncing around on like a pogo stick. The modern pleasure horses of today are highly trained, highly fit horses that yes are able to hold their rounded frames with a level head set & move at a cadenced gait. Is the level of collection that we achieve with our western pleasure horses the same as a grand prix dressage horse?, of course not..thats not what we are going for…our horses do however move in a collected manor with most of their weight on their hind quarters..a horse CANNOT correctly lope with too much weight on its front end…thats where the whole four beating thing came into the pleasure world. To say that ALL western pleasure horses never achieve collection is so uneducated & unfair…when I take my horses into the show ring I may drop my hand & let them show with a loose rein but for the 1 1/2 hours a day that I am schooling they are in a collected, framed position with a good deal of contact on their mouth..that is the only way to teach a pleasure horse how to keep their shoulders up, keep them driving up underneith themselves with their hind legs & achieve that rib line.
I understand that western pleasure looks easy from the rail..believe me I know first hand because I started off in the hunter/jumper world & constantly put the pleasure horses down for not really being anything special. It wasn’t until I actually started riding them & training with some of the top trainers in the world that I understood how hard it was to actually create a GOOD western pleasure horse. We have been working hard for the last five years to bring the breed stantards of what the gaits should be judged on to a level of correctness. You will no longer see a pleasure horse with its nose to the ground..in fact if you do encounter an AQHA western pleasure horse being placed in a class when the horses nose has been below the acceptable level plain for longer then three strides, please let me know..I’d love to bring the judges name up at the next AQHA meeting because judges are to automatically disqualify the horse if this action happens. In short, I am not claiming that my western pleasure horse will ever be as good as a high level dressage horse, thats not what I am training for..but dressage is not just for “dressage” horses. After all the true meaning of the word dressage is “training”. Coby Van Baalen quoted in the book “Simplicity in Dressage” (which I have read many times front to back)..”It’s not because dressage is so simple to do, but because dressage is simple to explain. Regardless of which level one rides, the basics are always the same. Aiming toward an end goal of complete suppleness and continual throughness of the aids.” I do not finish my horses to do upper level movements, nore do I wish to..but the basics & the foundation that I start training upon are based off of dressage principles. That is not an insult to your dressage horse by me saying that my quarter horse is somehow at the same level but it is mearly a complement to dressage & the principle that it instills upon a horse..I am one of the few trainers that incorporates other training styles into western pleasure horses..I am often criticized but the fact of the matter still stands that teaching a western pleasure horse the fundementals of dressage can in no way harm or hinder their training, it can only increase the amount that they are capable of. Next time a western pleasure horse goes loping by you, don’t disregard it as a simple rail horse, you never know what may be lurking under the surface.
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v13/113/78/8327201/n8327201_31416953_9204.jpg
One of my greatest mentors Sharon Wellmann..phenominal horse trainer that is producing what quality quarter horses should be.
yankeestyle2 – I’m not trying to be inflammatory or mean, so please don’t take my comments as such. The photo you posted, while better looking than many WP horses I see around my area in shows, is still not moving with the style that you say he should have. The tips of his ears are still below the top of his withers, and while he looks slightly more round through his body, he is four beat loping (you can see that one back leg his hit the ground just after the other, and both front legs will hit at seperate times as well, making for the four beats). I have attended many QH shows recently in my area, and still see the four beat lope and the slow as snails, posty walk and jog being rewarded in the show pen, unfortunately (and at higher level shows…not just local or 4-H). It’s excruciating to watch a WP horse four beat lope, as it looks as if they are trotting behind and loping up front, and these are the horses that I continually watch get top placings. I’m not saying it’s right, and it may not be that way everywhere, but I think it is still pervasive in many areas, and that often times, it’s the big name rider/trainer/owner combos that win in the show ring, no matter how their horse moves. I do have to say that this isn’t much different than the way the A circuit hunter shows operate (in reference to big names getting the placings, no matter that their riding style is completely opposite of what the standard says it should be or that the horse isn’t the type of jumper that should be rewarded), so I’m not picking on the QH folks or shows, as I have loved many quarter horses in my time, and enjoy riding western on the trails.
Yankeestyle2,
I’m glad that the peanut rollers are out. They just looked plain aweful. As far as dressage vs. western it just makes sence that they shouldn’t be the same. A good WP horse should not go with the amount of collection and impulsion that a GP horse does. After all, WP horses are supposed to be a “pleasure,” right? Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t these horses supposed to be what you might get on to have the ideal relaxing ride? That being said, there is not much relaxing about the trot of a good GP level dressage horse. Bouncey as hell! You have to WORK to sit that trot. Not what I would choose if I just wanted a horse to ride for “pleasure.” Thus the name, western pleasure. I will say that I do consider the WP classes and the HUS classes to be “beauty queen” classes. There’s nothing wrong with that. But even the fairest judge in these events has to be a little subjective. But then, even dressage is subjective. Even though I don’t hold one as being superior I will say that an upper level dressage horse is probably more fit, but then, a fit horse is not always a comfortable ride. Does dressage help the HUS and WP horses? YES! Do these horses have to develope some degree of collection and self carrage? YES! The great thing is that dressage riders can learn from the western world too! There’s a lot the western people know about release and stretching a horse that is great for dressage.
Dressagefan1 & Gunnerhorse…
Thank you for finally posting a response that makes a legit discussion instead of just putting down all western pleasure horses!..It’s refreshing to finally talk to objective yet well meaning people!
Dressagefan1..I guess I should have explained the photo a little bit better. The horse in this example is actually in a Western Riding class not a pleasure class so there are some differences there..this was the best photo I could find that demonstrated the roundness that we are acheiving lately…(I don’t have any photos of myself so Sharon is the closest person to my own training ways)… I believe that he is also just comming off of a lead change..(not the best lead change by the looks of it but he is only a four year old). I know exactly what you are talking about as far as people being placed that shouldn’t be..Unfortunitly I see it constantly & am forced to compete against it. Thats the hardest thing to overcome as a young trainer trying to make it on the circuit is the “big guys” that litterally run you into the ground…or rail..:)
Gunnerhorse-
“Does dressage help the HUS and WP horses? YES! Do these horses have to develope some degree of collection and self carrage? YES! The great thing is that dressage riders can learn from the western world too! There’s a lot the western people know about release and stretching a horse that is great for dressage.”
Thank you thank you thank you..I couldn’t have said it better myself. I wish that more people had the ambition to give each breed & seat respect for what they are individualy & try to learn from each other rather then putting up breed “barriers” I love going to big all breed shows like Penn National & a few other ones just to watch all the different classes. Good horses are just that to me..good horses..I don’t really care if your a Saddlebred, Quarter Horse, Draft Horse, Pony, whatever…as long as you can show me a good example of what the breed & dicipline should look like then you’ve got my attention!..I may even see a little something that they are doing that I’ll take home & try out!
you cant come off the forehand with your poll below your wither!!
that said, i dont think i made clear something i SHOULD have said, which is i dont think western horses and riding are BAD, wrong, crummy or should be stopped. i think if you love and look after your horses and you make each other happy, you cant go wrong no matter what youre doing. (possibly barring one or two activities that end up involving PCP, a tall bucket, the police and the mass media, but we wont go there). its just that western aint dressage, the aims are mutually exclusive and its like comparing a ballroom dancer to an iceskater! learning a skill, no matter HOW skilled, does not in an of itself contribute to gymnastic development.
i can dance. i can dance like all hell, and i can learn a routine and not fall on my butt doing it. but ive never developed a new muscle doing so and more definitely not advanced the gymnastic ability of my body to support the performance of more complex and difficult movements. thats the difference. baby level dressage is building blocks to advanced level, developing not just the mental understanding and competence, but the balance and carrying to allow those upper level movements to occur.
that said, check out this mare. shes 100% QH. shes 100% pantwetting incredible. power, self carriage, naturally uphill movement. shed be a jewel in any dressage ring and be damned with breed snobbery. i would weep to see her over my stable door every morning and she aint no cow in drag!
http://dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?
form_horse_id=1072968
yankeestyle2 said to Dressagefan1 and gunnerhorse:
“Thank you for finally posting a response that makes a legit discussion instead of just putting down all western pleasure horses!..It’s refreshing to finally talk to objective yet well meaning people!”
Now wait a minute, yankeestyle2. I wasn’t rude. I didn’t put down western pleasure horses. I just asked for an explanation of what you said because I was having trouble visualizing what you were describing. And excuse me for being a little cranky, but you never did answer my questions or post links to any pictures to illustrate what you were saying, you just just got all ticked off because someone had the nerve to ask questions about what you said. It seems to me that your definition of a “legit discussion” is one in which everyone agrees with you and no one questions anything you say. That’s not called a discussion in my dictionary.
Here is a little video showing toe-out conformation and how it affects the flight of the leg:
http://iceryder.net/wingin.html
Here is a little video showing toe-out conformation and how it affects the flight of the leg:
http://iceryder.net/wingin.html
Wow, what’s with raging out at Western Pleasure horses? LOL! Yes, that’s a great plan. Let’s all criticize what we don’t know, and then look like idiots!
Comparing western pleasure to dressage is comparing apples to oranges. In fact, if they were the same thing, they would BE CALLED THE SAME THING!
OBVIOUSLY, Gran Prix horses take collection, and perform precise, excatly balanced maneuvers that absolute balance on the haunches is necessary for. This takes years of muscle building to achieve. A great WP horse can be made in 7 months.
WP horses are meant to be comfortable, and NOT have a huge bounding trot, or lofty canter, or a great deal of impulsion so that they can pirouette, LOL! See the difference here? They also use collection in a different way, lifting their backs, making room for their back feet to fall underneath them, carrying their rider as to improvise gaits, and the rider can ride with little or no discomfort at all. Most riders are intermediate in their equitation capabilities and want to relax when they ride, not perform tempe changes (although most WP horses very well can do that) and piaffe. Strange concept, I know dressage riders! Who doesn’t want a stick up their ass anyway?
Whenever you have one extraordinary horse that competes and wins (I.E. The peanut roller who won worlds), there are myriads looking to do the same thing.
and P.S. LOL! The LAST thing I would want for a Western Pleasure horse is Dressage Training. Been there, done that and no way. Two totally different disciplines with two totally different end goals. *cringe* I’m ready for the attack!