Truer words were never spoken…
Aug 08 2007
Joe at TB Friends rescue in northern California does a daily blog you may be familiar with. I have to repost this quote from today’s blog here – it’s incredibly appropriate.
“The 2007 quote of the year comes from a horse killer in Vallejo. On the phone yesterday, and he says to me: I stay in America because people breed their mares on purpose. “
Touche. And shame on those of you who fill this man’s truck with your endless sea of crap that you bred, didn’t bother to train, and dumped at an auction.
Slaughter and transport for slaughter is illegal in California. There is no enforcement. I’m sure the killers think the very idea is funny. If California can’t keep a zillion illegal immigrants out, it certainly cannot keep its horses in.
Cutting back on production and driving equine values up past the point where the killers can afford to buy them is a much more effective means of stopping slaughter than legislation that will be impossible to enforce. Don’t get me wrong, I support and will fight for the legislation. But if you want to FIX the problem? Make horses too valuable to slaughter. Bring supply UNDER demand. Drive up the prices. It’s the only real solution.
Edited to add a bit more of the TB Friends blog. READ THIS if you think you can give a horse away, or sell him cheap, to a “good home” without reference and site checks.
“I deal with horse killers all day long. A new one on the scene, and he is just 17 years old. His girlfriend is 16, and she is usually with him. I first met this kid at a feed lot in Elk Grove, and he said his name was Biff. Honest. Put out his hand, and said my name is Biff. A few weeks ago I saw him again at a livestock auction, and he said his name is Leo. I asked what happened to Biff, and he said Biff never did catch on. Biff or Leo or whatever is a hustler. He works the internet and newspaper ads. Shows up with his girlfriend and tells you they have just been married, and your horse will have a forever loving home. But within a few days that same horse is on his way to slaughter in British Columbia.”
57 comments to “Truer words were never spoken…”
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That’s so depressing. I understand the evil “kill buyers” are basically just people making a living- sort of like the catfish of the horse world, cleaning up the mess left by others. But the ones who lie about providing a “good home” make me want to hit something. It’s just disgusting.
That has me in tears. 17 yrs old and sending horses to slaughter!!! What is wrong with the youth of today!!!
While never having met Joe myself, I know of him. One gal who purchased a horse from me always keeps one of his horses. She gets it riding safe then sends it back to him to sell. Sometimes she has one for 3 months, sometimes 9 months. Just depends on the horse.
Most rescues are not lucky enough to be able to support that many horses at one time.
Not just meat buyers who intend to decieve. My sad story starts 3 years ago…
New neighbors moved in. They fenced their fields, built run-in sheds, round pen, etc. and shortly after a trio of fugly spotted creatures showed up.
Fugly creatures were un-catchable. Wearing nylon halters 24×7. No farrier work. Wormy. Bad legs. upright shoulders. Poor necks. Worse heads. Would bite if you tried to hand fed them, kick if you reached for the halter.
Young ladies trying to catch them with buckets. Young ladies told me over the fence that the trio were “babies” and they were going to ride them when they were grown up. They knew the babies would settle down now that they were in a safe home.
Young ladies doting parents “rescued” fugly trio from the Canton auction. Actually paid the seller prior to the auction to “save” them. A parking lot purchase. In the dark. No bill of sale.
So sad I had to tell them they were adult POAs that I had looked at once myself but decided even for $200 a piece (the price advertised in the free shopper’s guide paper), it wasn’t worth the effort in feed and training since they were too fugly to ever make it as hunter ponies. When I visited them, I didn’t even stay long enough to haggle the price. No way those things were going to be living with me.
Neighbors paid $500 a piece “so the meat buyer wouldn’t get them”.
Fugly ponies lived with ignorant but well-meaning young ladies for most of the year before disappearing back to auction.
Neighbors haven’t had any horses since.
The dealers that drug horses and sell them to clueless beginners as “kid safe” and “bombproof” really piss me off.
Here’s a steal for ya A Grade Broodmare that is still injured! You can breed her even through fighting infection and now she’s willing to make a trade to mess up another one. This girl is notorious for this and always a different excuse whether it be “getting out of horses” but oh wait we just got another one. Idiots! And we wonder why the kill markets flourish…
Here’s her ad:
Hey everyone my family and i need help finding our perch/tb cross mare a home.
She is a beautiful bay with one rear sock, long mane and tail. She has very stunning gaits. Has foaled once with a previous owner, but not since. She is around 6 years old. She stands around 15.2 hands, but she is pretty built for her size. Up to date on coggins, worming and i think shots but not sure on that one. Had her front feet trimmed, but not her back due to the injury. Wasn’t handled well in the past but is coming around with my mom and little sister working with her.
Heres why we really need to sell her, earlier in the summer she came up from the pasture lame. Some of you may remember this. Her left rear fetlock and lower cannon were badly swollen. Vet came out and said there was a small fracture. Diagnosed the first time on 6/19. Exrays were not clear due to swelling but she said there was a definate fracture in her fetlock. The vet came out again yesterday for another checkup. Redid exrays and got the call today.
She has at least two bone chips floating in her fetlock joint which is causing the continued swelling and redish push coming out of the fetlock when the vet drained it. There are several things that can be tried to do, or if nothing is done the joint will eventually fuse and will flare up every now and again.
We just cannot continue with these vet bills for her, even more so since she will never be more than a broodmare or pasture pal.
We need to find Cookie a loving home that will treat her with care and let her live a happy life either as a mom or as a pasture pal. She would throw awesome dressage babies, or cross her with a jumper and you could get some awesome event prospects.
We are asking $800 for her. This will not even cover the vet bills but its what we bought her for.
Located in Franksville WI 53126
If you have more questions about what the vet suggested we could do, email me at playmymusic17@aim.com, will get pictures soon, dont have any one the computer right now.
If you know anyone that is interested please let me know we would like to find her a home asap so that the new owner can choose what kind of treatment they want to do (sooner the better).
Great example on why not to own a horse with $20 in your bank account.
“…you want to FIX the problem? Make horses too valuable to slaughter. Bring supply UNDER demand. Drive up the prices. It’s the only real solution.”
Bingo. If only people would learn how to recognize excellence in a horse, then breed for THAT, it would help tremendously. How many “breeders” do we know who just breed? They are adding to the huge numbers of mediocre, or poor quality horses, and are not striving for excellence.
“That has me in tears. 17 yrs old and sending horses to slaughter!!! What is wrong with the youth of today!!!”
The fact that we live in America! Most of the younger generation are under the impression that they are
“entitled” to things [and $$]. WRONG! But since they are “entitled” to things there is not a level too low to stoop to.
The sad thing is that MOST breeders “just breed”
Even when they wish to improve the breed they seem to automatically assume that, since they have the great grandson of Secretariat’s stable cat, and they have bred it to the great great grand niece of Man O’ War’s goat they are automatically going to better the breed, whichever breed it is.
And that is one of the better breeders as at least all his horses are well fed, looked after and have a farrier on a regular basis.
Now, if their owner just had a clue about what he was doing…….
The girl untamedmane is talking about,
Well it is a fine example of,
“You can’t fix STUPID”!
As for the no balled bastard going around with his girlfriend buying horses to slaughter and he can’t even give a real name. I think he is a complete chicken shit , if he thought he was doing a good service he would give a real name. Those low rent ass wipes are everywhere and as long as there are fu%!#@ tards breeding for the hell of it, well we will have these kind of people there buying those poor pathetic creatures no one else wants. One market feeds another.
I know someone who has 6 horses 4 acres fenced in with electric tape. 4 geldings and 2 fillys (ies? brain fart). She has a thing for…you guessed it COLOR. 4 of the horses are Paints/Pintos. Get this she wants to breed her mediocre Paint fillys to a Friesian and make lots of money selling the babies.
***sigh***
I just discovered your blog a couple of weeks ago, and I LOVE IT! It’s both entertaining and informative. I also can’t get over the level of literacy I see these days!
The last post touched me, as, over 12 years ago I saved a thoroughbred gelding from the auction. He was sold to me as a non-papered 14 year old. I came to find out after asking around that he was, in reality at least 19.
He had a great life here on our little farm. For the first time in his life he was king of the herd (he had a BAD cribbing habit and had been forced into a “frame” much too early in his life-resulting later in life – before I got him in severe arthritis in his back). He taught me so much and loved me so much. We had to euthanize him 6 weeks ago due to cancer. He was at least 32. He had a very peaceful end. We just led him down to the back pasture where hubby had dug a hole, the vet gave him a tranq, he grazed a while on the lush pasture, she gave him another tranq and he became very wobbly… then she administered the overdose. He went down very quietly and safely, then we pushed him into the hole. It was hugely upsetting, however, likely not for him. JUST ME. I like to think we did our best for this old friend and couldn’t imagine anyone wanting less for their horse.
Lovely to see the link to the OTT thoroughbred rescue. Keep up the good work!!
People just do not get that they are NOT going to make money selling the babies.
I think we need to buy youcantmakemoneybreedinghorses.com and try to educate people. Here’s a good question: How many of you who do breed horses have other ways of making money? I.E. you either provide other equine-related services – training, lessons, horse transport, tack or feed sales – or one of you has a non-horsey job? Is there anyone here who actually LIVES solely off the profit they make from breeding? In my experience, that is very rare.
The only way you can make money breeding horses is starting out as a millionaire ! Even then you still end up broke! LOL! I saw that happen more times than you can imagine too! First rule of horsemanship, you will never get rich owning them nor breeding them.
I have a stay at home job to support my horse habit, hell I know I won’t make money with them , that isn’t why I own them, it is a bad habit I enjoy and I have to earn money from somewhere else to pay for the horses ! ; ) LOL! Fact of life for horse owners!
Make money… off of, horses?!
That’s nuts!
Horses (and ESPECCIALLLLYYY horse breeding) is nothing more than a financial pit. The only place that I could see making money off of it would be: http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de/
If you are ever to see a Warmblood of sorts with the letters ‘GF’ after it, it probably came from there. I see ‘em all the time.
Nice post today FHotD.
It’s really funny how people say that “nothing matters past the first few generations of a horse’s pedigree”, yet they are the first ones to throw out in conversation the big names that are 10 generations back.
If the horses in the immediate ancestry were worth a shit, why don’t they mention them? Because they’re nobodies! They certainly don’t want to brag on some horse no one has ever heard of!
These are the “breeders” that breed the mediocre, average to poor quality horses, thinking they really have something special. Some of these are the “breeders” that have those big “production sales” every year, churning out hundreds of mediocre foals, who have nothing going for them except being “colored”. These are the “breeders” that think because their stallion has 43% [insert big name horse here], they are breeding quality “foundation” horses. Most of those stallions don’t deserve to be breeding, and their mares should be spayed. These “breeders” wouldn’t recognize a quality horse if it smacked them in the face.
These “breeders” are the ones who contribute hundreds of horses to the cheap, local auction barns, where they complain about the “poor horse market” as their “gorgeous, well-bred stallion prospects” bring $90 apiece. Ever notice every colt they advertise is a “stallion prospect”? And every filly is a “ride her now, breed her later”?
These are the “breeders” who keep their horses in barbed wire, pasture breed everything, and then hope for a “cash crop” in the spring. If they lose a few, no big deal. They have hundreds more where those came from.
These are the “breeders” that make me sick.
FHD, I think you are right on track with that web site ideah! Fabulous ideah , just like this site! I send so many people here, they love it to peices!
Pleni – go back to the archive for a look at some “stallions” I found advertised for sale.
Appalling.
Sorry for repeating myself, just wantd to get the word out.
I created a FHOTD message board. I enjoy reading the comments here, but I thought it would be easier if they’re in thread form. You can also post pictures. You can log in using your TMP name, if you have one. There’s a chat room too.
It’s brand new, I just did it this morning. If anyone starts using it, I will fix it up as I go along, and there’s a suggestion forum too.
Here’s the link:
http://p068.ezboard.com/bfhotdmessageboard
Please come on down and start a discussion on today’s FHOTD! Thanks!
Actually, in any kind of “pet” animal breeding (and I include horses as pets), if you’re making a profit, you’re probably doing it wrong (think puppy mills here.) “Hobby” breeders and “backyard” breeders can have really nice stock, but won’t make money.
I’ve been breeding for 10 years. Have yet to come out ahead. Mine are all own daughters and sons of Hall of Fame horses and World/National Champions. Did my taxes this year. I sold horses for a total of $18,700 in 2006. I spent $42,000 on horse related items last year. Go figure.
Well, I breed German warmbloods (Hanoverians and Westfalens), but I only breed from exceptional proven mares to exceptional licensed and approved stallions. That being said, my (dressage) equestrian center also offers lessons, training, boarding, German imports, and half-leases. I make decent money breeding, but then I have invested a TON of money into my breeding stock and usually pay upwards of $2000 for a stud fee for one of these amazing stallions. So, if I looked at my investments vs. income with the breeding only I would probably have a heart attack. It takes a huge amount of time and money to breed responsibly.
The Germans are the best horse breeders on earth. If you go to Germany, you will see 400 years of selective breeding, and the results are outstanding. Mares undergo Mare Performance Tests at age 3 and are scored, and Stallions must undergo rigorous testing to be approved to be a stallion. If they don’t make it, then the still become nice riding horses because they are still well bred, but they aren’t allowed to reproduce.
In each German region/registry (Hanover, Westfalia, Oldenburg, etc) approximately 3500 colts are born each year. Of those, approximately 500 are raised as “stallion prospects”. At age 2.5 these prospects go to approvals. About 10% of those are approved to proceed as stallions (yes, down to 50). Of those 50, about 50% proceed to go to the 100-day test (to become a licensed stallion) at age 3 – 4, and only about half of those are licensed. Yep, do the math – every year 3500 colts are born in Germany, and they only select approximately 12 of them to go on and be licensed and approved. That is what you call the cream of the crop. And that is why warmbloods are expensive. If you want your warmblood to get pink papers (meaning from approved parents), you breed by the rules. if you don’t, you get white papers and your warmblood foal is pretty much worthless.
My only wish is that there would be such a breeding process in the USA. The American Hanoverian society, the Westfalen Association, The Oldenburg NA etc. do a very good job, but if the QHs, Arabs, Paints, etc did the same thing the US breeding market would look totally different. There would be no BYBs standing their random stallion at stud. People wouldn’t breed crap to crap just because they could. Plus, only people that could afford to breed responsibly would do so. The foals from the BYBs would be so worthless that nobody would buy them and then nobody would bother breeding them.
In a perfect world….
I just hate doing taxes. It really drives home how hopeless these beasts are financially. I work a full time 40 hr a week job. Have been since I realized 7 yrs ago that training, breeding, boarding horses would not turn a profit.
ANN, I disagree with that. If a breeder genuinely produces animals that are far and above the mediocre crap available everywhere, then they most certainly can make money. And that doesn’t mean they are doing anything wrong. It’s the ones churning out the poor quality junk that are wrong, if they make money or not. Good, top quality horses are scarce, and people will pay good money for them, no matter what the market is doing. If someone isn’t able to create horses that are exceptional, they shouldn’t be breeding, period.
epiphany I totally agree with what you said about the Germans , but they also let alot of thier “Euro trash ” end up here as well .The uneducated people who think they need an import to make money or win the ribbon, usually do the purchase or a purchasing agent does it because it has the pedigree they want or it has been inspected as a youngster and not a more mature animal.I have seen alot of this happen but the smart ones like yourself don’t let it happen , thank goodness. I have a neighbor that is one of the “euro trash” buyers, OMG those pathetic things are so crooked and they breed them because they came from Germany and OMG they have the “blood”. Yet another story I suppose.
Check this out.
http://horsetopia.horse-for-sale.org/classifieds/ad225086
I wonder how many BYB are going to love this!!!Even better the stud fee is nego.?????
Cheap, not broke, not proven, and no papers boy the kill buyers just love these kind of people!!
You are right that a lot of people go to Germany to “import” a horse, pay a ton from some dealer, and get something awful. I am not saying that there aren’t fugly German warmbloods out there. I am just saying that the Germans don’t allow the fuglies to reproduce, which is why they have such awesome horses.
Part of the problem with imports are the dealers. I would never EVER go to a “sale barn” in Germany. The horses that end up there were the ones that didn’t sell locally, and that is enough to stop my in my tracks. Every time I go to Germany I drive from farm to farm to select the best of the best. I pay one of the registry officials (that judge the Mare Performance Tests and 100-day Stallion Tests) to come with me to
consult on which horses he thinks are the best. And then I get them thoroughly vet checked (including xraying the neck, back, and all joints) to make sure that I like what I see. It is a time consuming process, but the result is that I end up with the best horse in my price range.
The dealers drive me nuts. If I drive up to a farm and they have someone there speaking perfect English to me and their business card has the country code in front of their phone number, or if the barn name is in English, I will run the other direction. Usually horses there are the “leftovers” and are for sale for twice what good horses down the road will go for.
There are some importers in the US that are also scam artists. They will take random horses from Germany, make up fake performance records and papers, doctor the vet report, and sell the horses for tons of money to unsuspecting
people that want a GP dressage horse. Drives me nuts! But, I guess there are unscrupulous people in every field.
My advice – if you want to import a German warmblood, spend some time learning a bit of German so you can have a decent conversation, don’t go to a sale barn, don’t go through a dealer, and be prepared to drive a lot. Last time I went over to import I put over 4000 kms on my rental car. But, I found what I was looking for!
You know, if you are going to do all of that driving anyway, you should pick up a dozen coloured cobs. I hear the profit margin on those is fantastic!
I have rescued several horses with Joe. He is an amazing man.
*raises hand*
Hello, I breed sport horses and ponies, and I fully expect to make no money at it.
I wish more people were realistic about WHY they go into breeding horses. I’m breeding on a small scale (two foals in three years so far) and supporting my fancy hobby by teaching lessons.
I know a lady who got into breeding Oldenburgs, thinking she would make money. Makes sense, right? The started babies were selling (at that time) for $15,000 – $20,000 apiece. So… she bred five nice foals over three years, sold them all when they were well-started under saddle, and STILL lost money on the ordeal.
Breeding HAS to be a labor of love. Breeders HAVE to take the time and care to carefully place their foals in appropriate homes. If those homes don’t exist, STOP BREEDING!!
Very true , I didn’t mean any disrespect about the German State Stud breeders , who are the major breeders of the top quality horses there . I see alot of those bad dealers , they also peddle thier shit in the UK & all of Europe as well , it is universal. All I think we are both saying is , get educated on the breed you want to have , choose the best you can that fits your ideal horse for you. We could learn alot from the State Studs that are run in Europe, both good and bad , but we must also note that to get those 12 best of the crop they breed a lot of horses and they do cull thier herds and hence those end up in certain hands of the unknown and become an import or a steak. I do speak some German and I know how proud they are of those lovely animals, hard to say they breed culls when even those that get culled are still a very nice horse on the most part. But then they have a very high standard as it should be here as well . I like what you say epiphany, you seem very keen on your horses, I respect that very much .
http://www.mspong.org/cyclopedia/farriery_pics.html
What we would all like to avoid… check it out
Just to comment on some things that posted while I was writing my last message, I think you can make some money on breeding horses if you have your own place and you are also a trainer. My acquaintance had to board them at a training facility and when thousands are going out every month for board and training, it’s really hard to even break even. Luckily I have my own place (a 14-stall barn and indoor arena) and I am a trainer but I still don’t really expect to make great sums of money.
When I was breeding my first foal, I kept careful track of what it cost me between the stud fee, veterinary costs, mare care (like the mountains of food a pregnant TB mare will eat in a day) etc and my colt cost me $7,000 before he drew his first breath. I retained him as my personal jumper prospect so luckily it didn’t really matter, but I thought it was an interesting exercise and I tell people how much he cost me every time I hear of someone thinking they can breed horses and make lots of money.
I think that there should be a moratorium in the US and Can. that no papers can be issued to any horse for lets say,about 5 years. That would perhaps ease the glut of fugley’s and drive the price of good horses back up to where it belongs(supply and demand).-Sigh- yes i know it wouldn’t work-fugley breeders would just flood the market with even more worthless unregistered beasts.
Irresponsible breeders don’t spend a fortune on vet care, feed, etc. They breed the horse, turn it out and wait for the foal.
I adore this blog, read it daily. However, while I agree with Joe’s message re: slaughter & what he’s trying to do, he’s not I rescue I can or will ever support. If you knew his history, I’m not sure 90% of you would either.
hunterbreeder said…
I adore this blog, read it daily. However, while I agree with Joe’s message re: slaughter & what he’s trying to do, he’s not I rescue I can or will ever support. If you knew his history, I’m not sure 90% of you would either.
August 8, 2007 2:29 PM
Ok, so what’s the scoop?
I don’t have a problem with Joe, read his blog daily and have spoken with him on several occasions. I personally have found him to be the real deal and is genuine, and a humble man.
I have worked with several other rescues that didn’t have have the horses best interests at heart. While you may disagree with him from time to time, he ALWAYS has the horses first, and people second.
I have donated several times to Joe and have no issue doing so and will again when the need arises.
It isn’t my place to say, not here, but do some research. He’s not the real deal & while he does care for his horses, I still won’t support him & know many, many other that won’t either.
I don’t know his history, but I do not monetarily support rescuers who give the killers a profit by buying from them at a mark-up. It’s just my own personal standard. I support rescuers who buy directly from auction and/or take in free horses and/or take in animal control seizures.
However, I do enjoy his blog and think he makes a lot of good points.
horsepoor-
“The dealers that drug horses and sell them to clueless beginners as “kid safe” and “bombproof” really piss me off.”
The private sellers who do that piss me off just as much as the dealers who do. And believe me there are lots of of private sellers doing it.
Cheats and Liers piss me off!
Well, I guess most/all rescues have skeletons in their closets, some more than others.
Actually this is the first time I have ever heard anything negative about TBFriends. Interesting….. And trust me when I say, I have seen way too much when it comes to bad rescues.
anyone who thinks they can turn a profit of any kind from horses should spent a little time in a similar field learning how profit margins are made – like buying new cars as an ‘investment’. *LMAO*
You CAN make money on horses. There are plenty of farms out there making a living. But you have to go into it as a business, treat it as a business, watch your books, your profit margines, be smart, and do your homework.
The first rule of making money in horses is to go for QUALITY. If you buy/sell/trade QUALITY horses, the chances of making a profit are about 1000X greater than if you are dealing in fugly. Fugly = “I only have $20 left in my bank account,” Quality=”my last filly just sold for $25,000.”
Someone told me long ago that if you believe you can’t make money with horses, you are correct. If someone tells you you can’t make money with horses, it is usually advice from someone who has failed at breeding horses as a business. Why would anyone listen to someone who has failed?
HARD STAND UP – I agree with you. Quality is the number one priority, along with smart culling practices and an improvement system in place. A responsible breeder must have a GOAL. If a person doesn’t have a goal, then it’s just haphazard breeding by the seat of your pants. Responsible breeding = breeding for the improvement of a breed. It can’t get any clearer than that.
Joe is not a certified rescue, and he fully admits to that. Who cares about the past, what about his present?? What he is doing NOW is so much more important than anything he would have done previously.
im sure the van der zwans thought exactly the same thing – you CAN make money from horses – before their entire stock and farm was seized by ING.
Just because someone has a somewhat checkered past doesn’t mean they haven’t changed their way of thinking. People are evolving & learning all the time!
And just because he’s not a 501(c) charity doesn’t make him dishonest. And for that matter, being a registered charity doesn’t make someone HONEST either. We’ve all heard the stories or experienced first-hand how some of these so-called rescues can be in it for the money too.
I fully support Joe & TBFriends. Joe opened my eyes up to how wonderful TB’s can be and I now have a fugly *grin* TB in my pasture, who coincidentally was saved from the kill pens by Joe himself.
There are many folks who support TBFriends and if you’d like to join us you can go here: http://www.friendsoftbfriends.com. Hope to see you there!
LIFELIKE – They sound like folks who obviously screwed up somewhere. That wouldn’t be the pattern to follow if one wanted to succeed without getting into trouble. If they did something wrong, then they failed, didn’t they? If they didn’t, then they were victims of some corrupt entity, in which case, any of us are at risk of something like that. Whenever big money is involved, there is the possibility of corruption.
>>And for that matter, being a registered charity doesn’t make someone HONEST either. We’ve all heard the stories or experienced first-hand how some of these so-called rescues can be in it for the money too.< <
Oh HELL yes, I could tell stories all DAY about that.
I really must do that post about what does and does not make a rescue. Maybe tomorrow.
I too support Joe whenever my checkbook allows. I’ve given him money directly and through Friends of TB Friends. He is a gracious man who deserves the support he is given.
forthefutureofthebreed – look them up sometime… but frankly i have some pity for them. they got caught in the tricky corner of horses being both our friends and business assets – they got royally screwed by ING but they sure met them halfway.
google ‘poetin’ for the story.
lifelike001 – I tend to agree that certain circumstances can cause one to lose whatever they’ve worked for. But if all is on the up and up, that doesn’t necessarily have to happen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetin
I also agree that one can make money with horses. One would have to do every business transaction with the utmost in integrity, while at the same time, abiding by the laws that govern such a business.
At least where I am, the way people make money at horses is by hiring illegal immigrants, not paying workers comp (since pay is under the table cash), etc. Playing by the law with labor costs is a good way to go broke…
*LOL* sorry, but ‘making money’ and ‘having integrity’ are mutually exclusive concepts.
at the end of the day, are your horses your friends OR your business assets? your profit depends very much on your answer.