And now a few words about DSLD
Jul 21 2007
The ad: (why is it none of these sellers seem to have graduated high school? They don’t need a horse, they need Hooked on Phonics). On the plus side, she does seem to have mastered addition.
hi i have an own daughter of bunny bid for adoption, she is a foal of 1986 so that makes her 21 years old. she is open at the moment but takes to foal very easily, she has 120 AQHA points and has won almost $11,000 on the track. i am having to move out of my pasture and do not have the money to board 3 horses. and i was planning on breading her but i do not have the money this year, so here is my offer so she does not sit and go to waste or end up going to the aution 
i am asking a $300 adoption fee. i can send you pics and her blood lines. i will give you all her papers also. i will not haul unless she is paid for first. can haul if close. she is healthy and up to date on all her worming and shots. her hocks and fetlocks are shot, she can not be used as a riding horse unless they are very little, she is on just pasture right now and is doing great. she stiffens up when she is stalled. she wintered great with a mid weight blanket last winter and trees for shelter. her teeth were done a little over a year ago
i am asking a $300 adoption fee. i can send you pics and her blood lines. i will give you all her papers also. i will not haul unless she is paid for first. can haul if close. she is healthy and up to date on all her worming and shots. her hocks and fetlocks are shot, she can not be used as a riding horse unless they are very little, she is on just pasture right now and is doing great. she stiffens up when she is stalled. she wintered great with a mid weight blanket last winter and trees for shelter. her teeth were done a little over a year ago
Unfortunately, the odds are excellent this mare is going to wind up being “breaded” and served with onions, because this moron who owns her is trying to make $300 off of her instead of spend the $300 she should spend putting her to sleep. Looking at those dropped hind fetlocks, this old girl has a very obvious case of DSLD (Degenerative Suspensory Ligament Desmitis), “a condition where there is inflammation and faulty healing of the suspensory ligament, resulting in typical thickening or hardening of the mid-body of the ligament or the suspensory branches resulting in loss of integrity of the suspensory ligament and its ability to do its intended job of supporting the horse. In advanced stages the fetlocks seem to be sinking more when the horse moves. As the condition worsens, the pastern area becomes increasingly parallel to the ground, and ringbone can develop. In later stages, one of the most telltale signs of DSLD is in the horse affected in the hind legs; the pasterns level out making the fetlocks appear dropped and the stifle and hock gradually straighten, making the horse reticent to move even to its feed or water. Some horses will dig a hole in their stall or paddock and stand with their toes pointing down and the heels elevated. On hard surfaces, horses may rock back and forth, relieving one leg and then the other. Some horses find the condition painful enough to spend a more than normal amount of time lying down.” (veterinary information quoted from horseshoes.com)
Right now researchers are trying to determine if DSLD is genetic. They suspect it may be, in which case breeding an affected mare would be absolutely irresponsible (as would “breading” her but that is another debate). Regardless, why would you take a horse already suffering from a debilitating, uncurable condition that makes every step painful and breed her? And if your finances are so shaky that the loss of your pasture means you must get rid of a horse, why were you contemplating producing another horse? It’s shortsightedness and bad decisions just like these that keep the killers in business, everybody. It needs to stop. This old mare has more than done her time. If her owner is unable to finance her retirement, euthanasia is the kindest option.
Apologies to those who were hoping for more humor today, but I did feel the need for a Responsible Breeding PSA. Tomorrow we will have the long-awaited Bad Horses In Good Condition versus Good Horses in Bad Condition comparison, with some terrific examples thanks to all of you who send me pictures!
48 comments to “And now a few words about DSLD”
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Oh wow, poor girl looks so uncomfortable.
“euthanasia is the kindest option”
So many people are unable to grasp this concept. Euthanasia is a blessing to many animals.
I feel sorry for that horse. I am sure a trailer ride to a new home will be sheer torture.
It was my understanding that DSLD was known to be genetic. It is extremely common on the Peruvian Paso breed and has been traced to known lines.
Regardless, even if it were proven to not be genetic, it would be cruel to add the weight of a pregnancy to those already broken down ligaments.
Fuglyhorse..how do we contact you? I would love to send you some photos of an unfortunate creature sent to me for training….and they wondered why she didnt like to canter…ugh
Poor mare!!
There is a previous blog by titled something along the lines of take requests. You can find the contact info to send pics to him there.. if you dont mind i wouldnt mind you emailing them to me as well… email is warlordslegacy@gmail.com
ohiostatfan, e-mail to resqtb@yahoo.com but I warn you, I’m behind on e-mail – there is so much. But I will get to it eventually!
Thanks for taking the time to do this blog. I’m relatively new to the horse world, and this blog is a real education. Even with my relative ignorance, I’ve known some irresponsible horse people in my time and felt that THEY were the ones who needed to be “breaded”. I’m also a big fan of euthanizing mortally ill or chronically in-pain animals. They don’t know why they’re miserable, they just ARE, and it’s selfish of people to keep them around because of some kind of needy attachment or greed.
This is one of the first posts i really enjoyed. It is informative and seems sincere.
I know this mare. And know for a FACT she had at least TWO foals with SEVERELY contracted tendons. The last one (A Colt) died due to not being able to stand and nurse. The first(A Filly) has scars on her crooked legs from the braces she had to wear in order to help her stand, nurse and straighten up. She will never be a hard riding horse if at all.
This mares problems extend beyond her legs. I know she had a issue with her hip too. The owner prior to this girl had planned to put her down after her last foal. He GAVE the mare and colt(hours old) to this girl, so the girl could try to save the colt. But he died within days. This mare deserves a peaceful retirement or peaceful end.
This is probably the most comprehensive site on DSLD I’ve found. There are case studies and an actual protocol for diagnosing this terrible genetic disease.
http://www.angelfire.com/bc/curlygait/dsldorg.html
From this site
3. PHYSICAL EXAM-
A. Conformation changes: Over 90% of the time DSLD starts and predominantly affects the suspensory ligament (SL) branches.9 Similar lesions can occur in other soft tissues structures such as the flexor tendons.2,6 The classic signs of swollen, dropped fetlocks, with coon shaped hooves and straight leg angles occur in less than 1/2 of cases ? even with advanced disease.9 Early onset cases usually have no visual abnormalities. As disease progresses diffuse swelling and wind puffs about the fetlocks sometimes are noticed.1,2,5,6,9 Visible enlargements specifically involving the branches of the suspensory can also be seen.
Notice the dropped fetlocks only occur in HALF THE CASES. So dropped fetlocks could be the result of injury and can be painless and stable. We boarded with an old app that had this problem and he was quite active and pain free according to him.
From all my research the only common characteristic of horses with DSLD is swollen fetlocks, not dropped fetlocks.
Why did we research this problem? Our sister breed, the Peruvian paso has an unusually high incidence of DSLD in all four legs, not resulting from over weight or overwork and manifesting itself at a fairly young age like the horse has to be put down at 8 years of age. The latest information indicates that the problems found in the suspensories are found in the entire body of the horse, not just in the legs. A bit like Marfan’s in humans in that all the connective tissue, suspensories, and so on are affected and the horse can die of something like a blown aorta because of the same problem.
It’s a horrible disease with no cure. I know several people who had to put down their beloved horses because of it. But be SURE it is diagnosed correctly by the protocol mentioned at this website and by ultra sound. DON’T use the criteria of the dropped fetlocks because it isn’t accurate.
Why have we done so much research on DSLD? Because we have a mare who is hyperflexy and has long pasterns. And she was severely injured nearly two years ago. We feared that she had DSLD not long after we got her because of her configuration but were told that she did not have it but would always to be prone to injuries like “sprains” in humans. She fell in an ice storm, injured back or spine and put too much weight on the other side injuring those suspensories. She is now sound and normal but you should have seen the pictures of her fetlocks. They were HUGE. But they are now normal. This is NOT DSLD. DSLD horses’ fetlocks will not heal, the swelling will not go down and the fetlocks will never regain a normal appearance. We were just lucky. If you ever have any doubt about a horse having DSLD have an ultrasound done and bookmark this website because it tells a vet exactly how to diagnose DSLD. It’s a killer and a heart breaker. BEWARE!!!
I wish I had an extra $6 or $700 lying around…I’d buy this mare and have the poor thing euthanized. I have a little QH who is somewhat dropped in the fetlocks. At this point he’s fine, but you can believe that if he ever is NOT fine he will be humanely euthanized and laid to rest next to my old rescue boy.
I had two mares that were related that I had added to my broodmare band. They were 7 and 8 years old. Both came down with DSLD. Neither got real swollen, and one had dropped pasterns and the other did not. The mare that did not have the dropped pasterns, had a lot of trouble with her eyes. Within 2 years both mares were a wreck. As soon as they were diagnosed, both were removed from my broodmare band. This is a horrible disease. There is no cure, and limited treatment options. I hope they come up with a genetic test for it.
I would not be surprised that this mare DOES have DSLD. There are not that many things that will make them drop like that in both hind legs. In my mind DSLD is always the FIRST thing I think of when I see pasterns and hocks like this.
Actually injury and overwork will cause the dropping. DSLD is the incorrect healing of normal injuries that the suspensories of any horse have during use. If a horse is naturally flexy and overweighted or overworked (we were told to avoid tight turns and rapid changes in work intensity with our flexy mare) it can be injured to the point that the suspensories cannot recover. This does not mean the horse has DSLD. It’s just been injured beyond recovery. It can be quite stable and pain free. This happens to standardbreds a lot in racing. I asked my vet about the supposed high incidence of DSLD in standardbreds and he said the study was flawed and that they did not have DSLD but something with another name which was a breakdown due to overuse, not a genetic problem like DSLD. Dropping due to overwork does frequently respond to MSM and rest. DSLD doesn’t.
If anyone is looking for a case study, they should look no farther than the get of SOL DE MOJAVE (not totally sure of the spelling) He was a P/Paso, VERY sought after in the ’80′s, the ppl who owned him BRED him to EVERY mare they had! I knew a few ppl with his get, they(his get) were all UNSOUND by age 8 or there about.
Why would you let a horse live like that is pain?I hate people sometimes…
Agreed it may not be DSLD, but disagree that any horse with dropped tendons like that is pain-free and sound.
Our rescue has a DSLD gelding, a purebred peruvian, 15 years old, one owner his entire life, was never broke, and never did anything but sit in a pasture. His pasterns drop horribly, and his hind legs are posts. His pasterns were not very swollen however, although he did have “some filling” in his suspensories (not very noticable to the eye). He failed flexions miserably on all four feet, although he shows no obvious lameness. My vet did not feel any further diagnostics were necessary to prove that he had DSLD, and an advanced case at that.
Photos: http://www.safehorses.org/horses/amigo.html
RE:DSLD!! Long …and important.
Bloggers and commenters:
There are a LOT of outdated and/or flat out incorrect information on DSLD/ESPA out there, but there’s at least one that will give you the best, most current information on this devastating disease. Much has been learned in just the last couple of years, and the internet doesn’t ‘update’ itself!
Foremost is the understanding that this is not a leg disease, it’s a systemic disorder of the connective tissue at the cellular level. For the best information on that, follow the links below and look for the paper published in April of 2006 by Dr. J. Halper of the University of Georgia. (She’s to be publishing a follow up soon…)
For the latest and most correct information available, the collective experiences of hundreds of cases as well as the ‘official’ research go to the following web pages: (1) The most complete: http://dsldequine.info or (2) for a quicker view and links: http://freewebs.com/dsldhorse.
To learn more from the most experienced and connected folks in the area of DSLD/ESPA, join the Yahoo Group “DSLD-equine” at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DSLD-equine/.
There you will find great people with tons of knowledge, extensive files, links and photos, as well as an experimental nutritional program – administered by a vet – that has been giving relief to many of the affected horses.
There are also several DSLD videos on youtube.com. Do a youtube search for the term ‘DSLD’ & you will get several.
I highly recommend The two posted by “EquineESPAGroup”: the very touching “Equine DSLD-ESPA” and “Ono Eagle Joe” taken shortly before his euthanaisa.
“Eagle” a TB, provided blood, DNA, harvested tissues, etc. that were shipped to three different research institutions. His short life was not in vain!
There are too many horses out there suffering NOT to have the facts. It’s now known to be in all breeds, and not related to use. If you love horses, you need to learn about this!
Sincerely, losvagos
I just wish they’d euthanize any human with an IQ below 125(I’m being generous). Are you ever going to start up a “Stupid Human Blog? Pleeease? You could determine who should be spayed, neutered, euthanized, or even aborted for perpetuating fugly horse factories and having crowded, improperly-operated “Rescues”, aka “Horse Collections”.
Very educational today. I love it when i get to learn stuff makes me not feel so dang old .
Great blog
Thanks so much for the additional links. I remembered they had changed the name of the condition. For some reason they did not show up on a Google for DSLD although I had read them.
The app we boarded with who was severely dropped (below horizontal when standing)ran around like a maniac and played or bullied the other horses. He showed no signs of lameness or pain even when ridden but I surely would not have ridden him. It made me cringe to look at him.
Chexycowhorse – thank for you for the background information. This is also a good example of the fact that you should never give a horse with a severe problem away to someone unless you do so with a contract and can control the outcome. What a sad story. She sounds like she was a great mare in her day.
Re all the DSLD debate – yes, there is a lot of it out there! I have done my research and seen a lot of conflicting information. I guess my overall point is that (a) until it’s known that it is genetic, don’t breed it and (b) anything that broken down should not be bred anyway.
Here’s a site that is just so wrong! An “animal sanctuary” that “takes in unwanted animals” AND…Wait for it!…Breeds the rescues. (One of these mares has been bred twice since being rescued but I guess it’s okay because she has COLOURED babies.)http://www.bigskyranch.ca
I am so annoyed I could just spit.
Amorgan4me – dear god that’s some “rescue” did you see how thin Onyx was….. after they had her 3 plus years and bred off her….
There is new info on DSLD/ESPA “D/E” coming to light all the time. We have learned much in the past several years. I personally have had 5 cases and 3 of my horses went to research being done by Dr Halper at U of GA to help find answers.
If anyone here has had a DSLD/ESPA horse please join our DSLD-equine@yahoogroups.com list and document your horses. This is one way we can get a handle on how many horses are DSLD/ESPA affected.
It is showing up in many many breeds. Symptomtaic and diagnosed horses should not be bred or ridden. These horses often trip and fall so is dangerous to ride them as it is also painful in certain degrees in the progression of disease.
Here are some interesing findings on one of my own D/E diagnosed horses, age 3 and also my friends Appy mare age 5. Only outward sign was slightly dropped back pasterns and too flexy pasterns in motion. Tissue diagnosis showed:
all four legs affected including all tendons and all ligaments, eyes affected, aorta affected, nuchal ligament affected, patella affected, lungs affected.
So outward signs do not tell the internal tale. This disease is systemic and affects the entire body.
Please share your experience with D/E at http://yahoogroups.com/group/DSLD-equine/
Would DSLD be suspected on horses that are “coon-footed”? I see a lot of coon-footed horses, usually involving the front fetlocks/pasterns, and mostly chalk it up to a horse being poor quality. It doesn’t seem to be common among well-bred horses. Have they discovered any certain bloodlines that are responsible for this? Thank you.
Chamfron Stud:
I also love how they refer to all foals as “ponies”, turn out all their horses with nylon halters on, their horses don’t get ‘brushed’ because they’re “antsy” (ever heard of training?), and of course every horse’s page is overflowing with how much each horse loooooves to do things like get turned out to pasture. They’re so focused on making these animals human to appeal to the ignorant animal-lovers they forgot that they’re horses, not dogs or cats. Best part of all is their ranch’s “Goal”: “to educate people to a higher level of understanding when it comes to any animal related issue”
Guess they forgot to educate themselves first, eh?
That poor mare just looks totally in pain.. she really needs to gallop over the rainbow bridge and be pain free..just aweful.
As for the big sky place, just some favorite quotes of mine from their site:
“Sam is a beautiful, furry male horse who is curious and affectionate.”
Hmmm… furry is not an attribute I usually search for, he’s a male horse, is he a gelding? or a stud? We don’t know but these little “ponies” keep showing up.
“Spirit loves to kick her legs up in the air and run like the wind. She is the wildest one of them all and an example of how majestic these horses really are.”
Wild, another adjective I don’t usually put in the search engine when horse shopping, let alone wildest
“forthefutureofthebreed said…
Would DSLD be suspected on horses that are “coon-footed”? I see a lot of coon-footed horses, usually involving the front fetlocks/pasterns, and mostly chalk it up to a horse being poor quality. It doesn’t seem to be common among well-bred horses. Have they discovered any certain bloodlines that are responsible for this? Thank you.”
I would suspect DSLD in any horse that shows signs of weakness in the pasterns. I would certainly have it diagnosed to be sure but it is quite a prevalent problem especially in the Peruvian Paso breed. As for lines? My two mares only had one common ancestor ironically in the 3rd generation of their pedigree, but I could not guarantee that is where it came from. It was BTW a horse famous for both halter and WP in AQHA. I did have someone ask me when I had one mare for sale before I knew about the DSLD if she had anything wrong with her eyes based on her pedigree. At the time she didn’t but later she had terrible problems with her eyes.
CANIPICKEMORWHAT? should be my name…
Of the 3 horses I have owned in my LIFE! – two have had suspensory failure. Won’t go into the gory details, but one was a quarterhorse given to me with ‘long sloping pasterns” or so I noted when he was dropped off; the other was a TWH with a “Gee odd how he moves that leg.”
No vet has suggested DSLD for either horse (the TWH passed a prepurchase Vet Check) – but after visiting the DSLD site, I have little doubt both my boys were positive for this condition. Good news is the Yahoo site indicates there seems to be possible treatments in the works and more importantly some solid ideas for management of the condition.
The QH was euthanized a few years back.
With the info from this site, I hope to make my TWH’s life a little easier.
Thanks Fugly for putting this blog up and for drawing such a good informed crowd!!
the start of that ad made me think they were offering a rabbit to auction.
what is it about the horse world that attracts such illiterate arsewits??
cruel to keep that poor mare alive. if shes in pain trying to hold up her own weight, how could she possibly bear a foal too?
I’m with wtf! Stupid human blog needed…
Poor mare. The horse doesn’t have to go to an auction to end up slaughterd- this is a kill buyers’ dream ad
This is not going to work for everyone, but there is a way to both end a horse’s life humanely – without cost – and help some other animals in need in the process.
Operating quietly around the country are many large cat sanctuaries that take in and care for lions, tigers, and other exotic animals that have been confiscated or relinquished. The cost to feed and house these animals properly is tremendous, and zoos around the country are full.
Many of these sanctuaries will, at no cost to you, humanely put a horse down in exchange for your donating the corpse to be used to feed the animals. In my experience, it is generally done with a clean rifle shot, and by people who are expert – as well as compassionate.
Yes, I know it’s not for everyone. And not all sanctuaries are the same (as with anything, check it out first!) But in a way, it’s similar to organ donation – the death of one allows others to live.
Snark, your public awaits your next entry.
I know there are some on here that will cheer for UGA on anything vet-wise but I will not. I know too many ppl that have had problems there. UGA is untrustworthy.
I will either trust UT or Chatahoochie Equine.
I came across your blog the other day. Someone had posted it in BB. I’m very glad someone has put to words and pictures what should be done about resposible breeding. Having said that, I had to take a long look at my own breeding that fruited in January. I did have in mind conformation but my main goal was temperment and usability. I don’t think I did to bad.
I LOVE THIS BLOG!!! Of course, I live in fear that you will find my website one day, and critique my horses, but it doesn’t stop me from checking this out every day and giggling like a fool, LOL!
See,I have those draft crosses with the spots! My one poor girl has such a big head, and both have long bodies, but they excelled in what they were bred for, =-)
Should you come across them one day, I beg you for kindness, =-)
Meanwhile, I still plan to check in and enjoy your site!
It is sick that she can admit that her knees and hocks (joints) are so bad that she is not rideable, but thinks that she’d be able to carry a healthy foal full term. I think the information on DSLD is interesting, I don’t know much about it.
I know a girl with a mare who has a torn perianum. There’s a hole/tear in it from a foaling several years ago that very nearly killed both the mare and foal. She plans on having the vet somehow sew it up and fix it, then breed her again. The mare’s butt-ugly, and even though “she’s so sweet”… she doesn’t need to be passing on ugly.
If you want ugly and sweet, go to any Waffle House in East Tennessee at 3 am. The nametag will usually say Doris, Gladys, Trudy, Helga, etc…
This is way beyond sad. Poor thing, what are people thinking?
My favorite from the Big Sky site:
“Spirit loves to kick her legs up in the air and run like the wind. She is the wildest one of them all and an example of how majestic these horses really are. Spirit is in essence the “spirit” of all the horses at Big Sky Animal Sanctuary and she loves to remind them how to “let loose” and just be “free spirits”"
Who doesn’t like to kick up their legs and run like the wind, seriously? LOL…
That site is pretty nuts. Like the fact that they bred the B&W pinto pony….rescue breeding = no no lol
Robin
>>Would DSLD be suspected on horses that are “coon-footed”?< <
There are a lot of coon-footed horses out there that are no more or less than coon-footed horses.
When a horse has DSLD which progresses to the point where the distal limb is affected a horse with fine, even PERFECT lower leg structure will begin to take on a coon-footed appearance.
The sacral area of the back might begin to show a ‘hunter’s bump’, the croup and tail will droop, muscles of the hindquarter waste, the knee and hock will straighten and the fetlock drop as the connective tissue in the animal becomes more and more compromised.
So in answer to your question, no, a coon foot *in and of itself* is only weak conformation.
BUT, if you see coon-feet in a horse that used to have good angles – then yes, be very suspect. If you see this in combination with other symptoms (see web page link published in my first post) …get going on diagnostics!
>>It doesn’t seem to be common among well-bred horses.< <
Unfortunately, that’s so not true. Would it were so easy!
Many, many truly brilliant horses with wonderful attributes: disposition, conformation and athletic ability have been positively diagnosed.
It is my experience that fewer poorly-bred horses have been represented in the horses I’ve seen with this. (Unless you count horses that are bred from symptomatic parent. There was a lot of ignorance about this.) Since I’ve dedicated the last decade to learning about this disease, I’ve seen a lot of them in many breeds.
>> Have they discovered any certain bloodlines that are responsible for this? < <
Not at this time – theories, but nothing definitive. The DNA research is temporarily suspended awaiting the development of more sophisticated procedures. This is in the works, funded by the wonderful Morris Animal Foundation. DSLD research is specifically listed as one of the projects they hope to benefit with the tools they are developing.
There are commonalities between DSLD – more properly known as ESPA (Equine Systemic Proteoglycan Accumulation) – with Marfan syndrome. Marfan’s is genetic …but it also sometimes results from a spontaneous mutation in that human or animal.
Breeders who study this will have their personal beliefs and theories on bloodlines.
Buyers should find a breeder they trust, who: 1) acknowledges the problem 2) can show that they’ve researched the history of the lines they represent 3) can give you the ages at death of the horses’ ancestors …do your research and get a prepurchase exam.
If you are specifically concerned about DSLD, that prepurchase should include an ultrasound using the protocol developed and published by Dr. J. Mero. The link to that protocol is at the web page mentioned in my first post.
Regarding Soli’s comment about donating a horse to predator sanctuaries: Personally I think it’s a wonderful idea that is in balance with nature’s way, and nourishes the predators in the way they’re intended to be.
It should be mentioned that the animals are humanely euthanized first, however they cannot have drugs in their systems so pento is not used. Instead, the bolt is used for euthanasia.
It’s also important to realize that the horse has to be in proper health to be a safe consumable; so not everyone’s horse might qualify.
As soli said, it may not be for everyone, but if my horse could have travelled that far I would have done so.
losvagos: Thank you for the information regarding DSLD. You are probably correct that many times a coon-footed horse is likely weak conformation. I see it a lot in Tobiano Paint horses, for example, although mostly those that are poorly-bred. I realize it is among the well-bred horses, too. I saw an AQHA superior halter mare once who was so straight through the hock that it looked like she was going to camber over (forward) with her hocks. Her suspensories were very weak, and the pastern angle was nearly parallel with the ground. And she had never been broke to ride or ridden. Looking back, she was probably a perfect example of a horse with DSLD. Thank you again for the insight.
This may be another who does not realise what they have – in this video the poster asks what gait the horse is doing – in the slow mo you can see the over flexion and choppiness of the gait.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB6niJWuDDA&NR=1
This horse is LAME. And the person that put that video up is an idiot. She owns a huge yahoogroups list and will put this kind of crap up to discredit the breed. She knows darn well that the horse is lame and the listmembers are totally clueless.
DSLD is *not a “Peruvian Horse” “problem” Just about ALL breeds and crossbreeds can be affected.
God I swear, people think that it has a uterus, let’s breed it…. So sad watching them suffer but OMG we have to have that foal to carry on the gene on ….
They do it with themselves too. Why on earth would any of these STUPID people WANT to impart to the world THEIR genes? Put them in a pillowcase with a brick and pitch them in the creek after birth.