With apologies to Dr. Seuss and my former professors…yes, more Horses of Color!
Jul 19 2007
Do you like a colored horse?
Of course I like a colored horse!
I like it with a great big head!
I like it better gold than red!
I like it with a neck that’s short!
I like the most post-legged sort!
I like it with a fluffy tail!
We’ll look so pretty down the trail!
Do you want a horse with some panache?
Better bring a lot of cash!
Got twelve more foals on the way next year!
The last horse was sent in to me to be featured by someone who was kind enough to rescue him, geld him, and make him a riding horse. Two thumbs up to her for both removing him from the gene pool and giving him a good home where he can be useful!
Tomorrow: An alert reader sent me the web site of someone who is breeding Paso Finos to Appaloosas. Yay, it’s the Passaloosa! No, actually, she has a fancy schmancy name for them and is calling them – are ya ready? – Spanish Jennet Tiger Horses. The last time I checked, a Jennet was a mule. This is going to be entertaining.
85 comments to “With apologies to Dr. Seuss and my former professors…yes, more Horses of Color!”
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I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a horse whose point of hip was higher than its head and withers. Boyoboy, that first horse is downhill. Perhaps it’s a young’un and will come up some in front, otherwise I don’t see how it can walk without falling on its face.
I really really want to believe that first photo has been distorted in some way, cause that’s bum high even for a youngster.
Kyani, while we’re on that topic – I do want to say that I do not photoshop, distort, etc. any pictures. They are exactly as originally posted. I know you weren’t saying that, but I know some of my, um, non-fans think I do that. No folks, leave your A circuit show barn sometime and go horse shopping…preferably in rural areas…you will see that these horses do indeed exist!
OMG this is the BEST post yet!! Loved the rhyming. That poor first horse looks like it was put together by committee. If you cover up the picture and only look at one part, the individual sections aren’t that bad. But all together… WOW!
Yeah, no need to worry. I am in no doubt that there is a plentiful supply such photos without having to go to the trouble of photoshopping.
On an aside, how would we go about contacting you privately to submit photos for possible critique or suggest post topics?
HAHAHAHAH Can’t wait until tomorrow!!
As for the first horse looking downhill…it looks like they have it standing on a slope…so it makes it look more downhill than it probably really is. Look in the background and see how the land is slanted. (Or else you just have a slanted photographer…or the horse is actually that much downhill…which is very possible)
FHB
I just love this site, the latest has my face hurting.
I haven’t laughed that hard in weeks. Part of me feels a bit guilty since it really isn’t a laughing matter at all, but thanks anyhoo.
On the subject of whether or not these fugly horses really exist… There is a trail riding stable out in the country near where my family goes for vacation every year. My sister and I used to beg to go there, but my Dad always said, “Don’t be ridiculous. I’m not going to pay for you to ride somebody else’s horse when you’ve your own at home.” A few years ago on vacation, my sons wanted to go there and ride and I said, “What the heck, sure, lets go.” I almost fell over when we got there. I had never seen so many unfortunate looking horses in my life. I don’t mean they were abused or anything, they were just the most unattractive equines I had ever seen in my life. It was kind of a shock to me.
Anyway, I love today’s pictures and rhymes. I’m so glad I found this blog.
Kyani, the e-mail is resqtb@yahoo.com – you can always use that. All submissions are kept anonymous.
OhEmGee, how kin u keap poztin hosses dat r not evn grumd?
…ahem. I think this post has totally won me over. I owned a very, very well bred KWPN horse with amazing talent, who happened to also be ammy proof [bought him when I was 13 and he had never shown above 3', did my first National level GP on him when I was 14--hims was a good egg], but the first thing we did when we purchased him was de-ball his ass because he was not PERFECT. He was an awesome guy, but he had a slightly clubby foot [and I mean slight], and was narrow chested. He was in the stud book and everything, but we did not see the point in passing along less than ideal genes. Plus, his siblings represented his genepool much better than he did as they were mostly flawless.
My point? Whether I agree with every confo critque you make or not, your wit and basic message remains the same throughout the blog…and I love reading it!
Just found this blog and must say it has me in stitches…. oh and – I guess I should say I’ve learned a good deal about conformation, or lack there of as well.
Carry on !
ROTFL… great rhyme, I actually hate Dr. Seuss because of the goofiness, but that went together really well.. I have to force myself to believe that the first horse is some way NOT as downhill as it looks..at least I hope not.. yikes. I’m w/ the others, maybe it’s a young’un and it’ll grow out of it. The other two well…at least the one has a good home w/ someone who loves him. Hope the middle horse doesn’t get bred.
The term “Jennet” is also used to refer to a small Spanish horse.
Love the blog though. Agree with all you have said.
I own horses like this because I’m a sucker for a hardluck story. I will not, however breed my mustang mare ever.
Indescriminate breeding also drives me nuts.
Today was wonderful! Excellent rhyming!!!
Re: jennet- doing some googling on this yields interesting results- it does refer to a real horse breed, historically. Attempts to revive it have led to many interesting things.
Like this registry,Tigre Horses, which are TOTALLY different from spotted grade gaited horse crosses that other people are calling Jennets and jennet tiger horses and whatnot!
It’s sort of like the whole gypsy vanner/gypsy cob thing. LOL
crap, forgot this wiki entry on jennets
The second horse again looks like it could be the gaited sort, but is bad even for them. If it’s supposed to be a stock type, I feel even sorrier for it.
Regarding Spanish Jennet Tiger horses:
The Spanish Jennet (different from jennet) was the fiery gaited war horse ridden by the Spaniards in the middle ages. The original appaloosa (Indian horse, not the mess we see later) carries the colors that were seen in those Spanish Jennets and other horses in portraits from that time. The Paso Fino horse is descended from the Spanish Jennet but the beautiful spotted colors were bred out. The breeder (not us) of the tiger horse is using naturally gaited and well conformed appaloosa few spot stallions to breed to the very best Paso Fino mares (natural gait, excellent conformation) to recreate the beautiful gaited leopard colored horse of the middle ages. Since both parents are exceptional gaited equines there is no reason the offspring should not be “to die for” riding horses regardless of color but they will have color and gait with a gaited few spot sire and paso fino dam.
Male and female donkeys are called jacks and jennys or jennets but jennet means a mare in the UK and mules are Johns and Mollies by the way.
yerk. I hate to do it, but there’s some more interesting jennet info here, which is pretty interesting from a historical standpoint anyway. OK, I promise I’m done googling for this, at least for today!
oh lord
that 2nd horse… SO unfortunate!!
The sad thing is that I’m sure your Inbox is FULL of pictures of unfortunate looking jugheads that are for sale for obscene amounts of money.
Your blog is truly the highlight of my day.
I am definitely inclined to think the first horse is a yearling and the slope of the background suggests uneven ground or photo, or just plain bad cropping (although admittedly all of the photocropping I have seen with skewed backgrounds is to make the horse look more *even*, not as downhill as this!)… I don’t think I’d write it off as a bunny hill just yet!! I have to give them bonus points for a well fitting halter (a HUGE for sale ad pet peeve of mine is seeing the halter hanging 3/4 of the way down the nose – that would make even the nicest head look like a standardbred!) and made it look presentable, which can’t be said for most of the other horses out there on for sale ads.
The second one looks like a mule. Very unfortunate.
Absolutely, ridiculously, brilliant. I think the last one just sent me over the edge (the pie-shaped head).
I’m desperate to know what breed the middle horse is…TWH?
Keep shedding the light on these people who just won’t stop the madness.
Whoa there FHD….please go easy on the comments about the horses in rural areas. I am assuming that you are making a generalization, but I don’t want your readers to think that all horses in rural areas are fugly.
These horses can be found anywhere. Do we have a few “not so pretty†horses on our farm- yep. The reason for this is because we take our commitment to our animals and breeding horses VERY seriously. When the horses on our farm become unusable, be it from soundness issues or age-related, it is retired from “duty†and remains here at our farm. Consequently, we do have some geriatrics. Regardless of their unusable nature, these horses still get the best of care, visits from the vet, and they will be buried here when the time comes.
I also would like to share an experience we had at our farm years ago. We once purchased a yearling stallion prospect from one of the top breeders in our industry. He was far from fugly. This colt had a pedigree, balance and temperament to die for. His sire, dam and all four grandparents were world champions in everything from halter to performance and he had a great start to his show career as well. We showed him as a 2 y.o., rode him at home as a 3 y.o. and then started covering mares with him when he was four. Fortunately, we have a policy at our farm that we do not cover any outside mares with a new stallion until he has foals on the ground out of our own mares. Good thing- the first foal crop hit the ground and every single foal was either lethal white or NI. We had to euthanize the OLWS foals and we lost the NI baby. This stallion was a genetic MESS! You can only imagine the money and time we had invested in this boy. Regardless, this was his only crop of foals and he is now a gorgeous gelding. Had we done our homework before we purchased him, we would have discovered his genetic flaws and not bought him. One lesson learned the hard way. Moral of the story- fugly can be hidden on the inside, too.
Now, to use another great book by Dr. Seuss:
One horse, Two horse, Red roan, Blue (I can breed it all by myself).
One horse, Two horse, Red roan, Blue.
Black horse, Gold horse, Old horse, New.
This one has a little star. This one has a little scar.
Say! What a lot of fugly horses there are.
Some are red. And some are blue.
Some are old. And some are new.
Some are sad. Some are glad.
And some are very, very bad.
Why are they sad and glad and bad?
I do not know. Go ask your breeder.
Some are thin. And some are fat.
The fat one has a medicine hat.
From there to here, from here to there,
fugly horses are everywhere.
Here are some who like to run.
They run for fun in the hot, hot sun.
Oh me! Oh my! Oh me! Oh my!
What a lot of fugly horses go by.
Some have two crooked feet
and some have four.
Some have a two flaws
and some have more.
Where do they come from? I can’t say.
But I bet they have come a long, long way.
We see them come. We see them go.
Some are fast. And some are slow.
Some are high. And some are low.
Not one of them is like hogger.
Don’t ask us why. Go ask your blogger.
And now good night. It is time to sleep.
For these fugly horses we must weep.
As for fun, Today was the most.
Tomorrow is another post.
Every day, from here to there,
fugly horses are everywhere.
LTB – it is a paso fino “stallion prospect”
Giddyup wrote – The sad thing is that I’m sure your Inbox is FULL of pictures of unfortunate looking jugheads that are for sale for obscene amounts of money.
~~~
Bingo! I am getting over 100 e-mails a day. I can’t keep up. They are coming fast and furious. I wish I had more time to go through them all!
Just got led here by someone else. Great blog!!! I really hope that the people who really need to see this (the ones who are breeding these poor animals) see this and maybe learn a thing or two!!!
You can rest assured I will be coming back to check out your blogs!!
phs, it’s hardly fair to say that your boy was a genetic mess because YOU did not research enough to know not to breed him to another carrier!
We stood a frame/splash/sabino stallion for many many years and bred him to non carrying mares and never once had a lethal white out of any of those crosses! When the time was right, we purchased a breeding stock stallion and bred him to our loud colored mares, and no problems there. If being a frame overo was the only ‘genetic problem’ with him, it really shouldn’t have been a problem at all!
(And that is all I can comment on as I have had no experience with NI at all.)
Why do people not test for frame in possible carriers? It’s not like it’s difficult or expensive. If you know even one horse of the breeding pair may carry frame, the risk is too great NOT to have both parents tested. Production of LWOS foals is, almost invariably, down to negligence or ignorance.
I can’t really complain that phs’s horse was gelded, but if every mare he was bred to had been tested for frame first, there is no reason he could not be bred.
However, I have no clue about NI. I tried googling but only turned up Northern Ireland links :/
Maybe its because I spend all of my time around Arabians. Maybe its because when I’m around different breeds, it’s usually at the show grounds. Maybe its just because I’m in denial. I don’t know WHAT it is, but these horses are so schockingly unatractive to me that I have a hard time understanding how anyone could have ever contemplated breeding their parents. In their wildest dreams. For $100,000,000.00. I don’t care WHAT the reason is…but these folks need to learn to just say no.
Amanda- like I said before had we done our homework first, we would have NOT purchased him. However, that was not the case. And, since he was a genetic mess, we gelded him. Just because it has testicles or a vagina does not mean it should be bred. A responsible breeder should (SHOULD), among other things, try to better their breed, not add to the conglomerate of defects that already exist. A poor stallion prospect can make a superb gelding and that he did.
Now, for those of you that are not familiar with OLWS (Overo Letha White Syndrome), it is a genetic defect that was once specifically linked to the frame overo coat pattern. The foals that possess both alleles for this defect are born all white or mostly white and have a healthy appearance and appetite at first. However, because of the GENETIC DEFECT, they can completely digest their food. If these foals are not humanely destroyed at birth then most severely colic and die on their own, and with great pain. Now, I said this trait was at one time thought to be found only in frame overos (which BTW is recessive to the tobiano coat pattern). But because of people continuing to breed the carriers, this trait can now be found in ALL paint horses, including tobianos and solid-bred paints.
We have learned a lot over the years and I hope to KEEP learning. Thanks all for your patience with the long posts.
Like I said, LESSON LEARNED on not doing my homework first. I simply wanted to share so some of you don’t make our mistake.
And, for those of you wondering- NI stands for neonatal isoerythrolysis and it is similar to RH in humans, except the antibodies in the mare’s colostrum basically poison the foal. The foal must be given different colostrum and can later nurse on its dam when she gets in regular milk.
It is also worth mentioning that this is a defect that can be found in other animals as well, especially certain breeds of dogs.
As for our gelding- even if we had bred him to non carriers, he would have had a 50% chance of producing another carrier and then there would be an even bigger problem. That form of ignorance, NO apologies, IGNORANCE, is why there is such a problem today!
C’mon people, be responsible, please.
phs wrote: “As for our gelding- even if we had bred him to non carriers, he would have had a 50% chance of producing another carrier and then there would be an even bigger problem.”
An excellent decision! I wish more owners were that responsible!
Fugly,
You say what many of us have been hesitant to say. I think your message speaks volumes and for that I applaud you!
I must beg to ask you, however, next time I’m looking at a new horse prospect may I call upon you? I’m serious!
Great job… thank you for taking time out of each day in an attempt to educate the ignorant may your blog travel far and wide.
Whoa, great post today
Love the rhyming by both FHD and phs.
Silly, but so true.
I have my own 2 messes here at home, a 20 year old kiger mustang x (absolute NIGHTMARE) of a mare, and a little POA gelding. Neither of those genes are going anywhere else!
Keep up the great work!
I have no faith in that the first horse was messed with. Take a look at what is out even in the show ring…. OH, but it has COLOR! Ugh! I love this blog!
The first, I thought was kinda cute, if your not doing anything with it as far as breeding, very true statements, I gotta read my conformation book more!!
The Second!!! “PASO STUD PROSPECT???????” ooooooooooo poor baby he looks terrible, I’d prolly geld it and put him to pasture or humanely euthanize him. Those poor little legs are gonna hurt later
:(
The Third: This is bad I know, reminds me of my appy stud (slaps own face), WHO by the way is now gelded and very happy as my newest rider. His neck was like that, but also ewe
I was so stupid.
I used to be critisized on a forum like this, I used to fight back so hard and mean. I was so stupid. Blind those who breed horses with no pedigree (I was one), ignorant of the poor foals resulting. Thankfully I knew alot of people that loved both of my ex-studs. I made a rider of my grade ex-stud, a college girl loves him to death, here’s her log of him: http://tuckerlog.blogspot.com/2007/06/not-about-tucker-but.html
I was lucky, most sellers can’t find people that love their horses that much. I have kept a great deal of our foals to train myself and teach people how to ride with them, neighbors love it. Wow I’m rambling, back to the site, I’m new to this one but I appreciate people like you all because you all see the real world and what happens to these poor horses because of stupidity. I look forward to reading this everyday (site).
I love thsi blod first place i come when i go on line every day. Its a hoot and i am learning as well.
being a paint breeder i must ask PHS, seen as she had a stallion that was a genetic mess are you still breeding your LWOS mares, Now i will not breed carrier to carrier but . there is only a 1 in 4 chance of 2 carriers producing a lethal white positive foal.
Breeding a carrier to a non carrier is a 50% cahnce of the foal being a carrier. So if you lost 4 foals to LWOS then you have 4 mares that are carriers and just as much of a genetic mess as the stallion was. Did you spay them so that they could not pass on the LWOS. You totaly blame him yet what about yoru mares, they HAVE to be carriers for a foal to be positive and be put down.If we are going to educate then lets educate all the way with the whole on genetic flaws.
I have bred my non positive mares to a carrier.
The APHA is a coat pattern breed and regarless what the foal is genticalty they will register it phenotipcaly(SP) Your tobinao or Overo may well be a tovero and as breeders we should be educting on how each pattern gene effects the other patterns.
whoa… alot of misconception about LWO
LWO IS a homozygous frame. Heterozygous frames are carriers.
The tobianos/solids you see ARE frames as well, they are just either a combination of frame and tobiano, or a minimally expressed frame. They still are genetically frames and can have frame patterned foals even if they themselves don’t have obvious frame characteristics.
It is totally irresponsible to breed a frame to anything that hasn’t been tested as negative for frame(LWO). There are still breeders out there who do it and don’t mind taking the chance of having a LWO foal even though there is now a test for it in case you aren’t sure if the horse is a carrier.
As for the Tiger horses…Motor beat me to the punch. I find her horses beautiful. Not sure why they are called Tiger horses…. if she wanted to recreate the old Spanish Jennets, she should have just kept it simple… using the word “Tiger” kind of cheapens it.
I don’t think it is bad enough with the second horse that he would have to be put down or be a pasture ornament. If I had to have crooked front legs, I would choose over at the knee instead of one that is back at the knee.
If you look at some pics of paso fino horses, there are TONS of crooked legs out there. They are on horse working, sound and passing it on in many cases. Sadly, many champion breeding stallions have awful legs but are bred anyway because they are quick. I guess you don’t notice that their legs are crooked if they are moving fast.
ya know youngsters go through growth spurts in different ways.
OMG!! Thank you for speaking your mind and lending your voice to the others of the same opinion! We had to have been twins in another life! I have been accused of equine snobbery and it is nice to know that I am not alone in this opinion. I cannot wait until your next blog!!!
Stevie
I have not posted before because I don’t really agree with all of this but I have to say two things.
A) when cutting something down do your homework since some of this stuff that is being pointed out is not true(mainly the color stuff).
And B) is to
PHS
You gelded the stud but did you pull the mares out of the breeding program???
Lethal White is not just because of the stud. To just geld him and keep breeding the mares is pointless.
The Tob/Solid/Splash/ect ones you see that are carriers are normally mixed or minimal/incomplete like what was pointed out by someone else. Since they can’t test for all color patterns yet it is hard to say that yes they are for sure Frame but in a lot of the cases you can do a study on the line and see that yes they are.
I think there are many misconceptions about LWO. The APHA website has some excellent information. Just because a horse tests positive for LWO does not mean that it should never be bred. Without the gene, a true overo horse might not occur. A horse can have one copy with no problems. However, if two carriers are bred together, there is a 25% chance of having a lethal white foal. Some people think that some horses do throw the gene more often though, and of course if you remember genetics and random occurances..it is possible to get the same thing many times in a row. However, with testing available now, there is no reason to not know what horses are carriers. Just don’t breed two positive horses together, and there is no chance of a lethal white foal. We are starting to understand paint genes more and more, and currently there are only tests available for two of the pattens. Please read on the APHA website or UC Davis for more info. I just feel that there is many misconception to it, and many people thing that carriers should not be bred ever..but we will lose a color pattern that way. Education and testing is the key.
That horse in the middle doesn’t even LOOK like a horse.
It sort of looks like someone bred a cow to a donkey, and then that to a horse. Maybe. I’m not sure if the horse got in there, anywhere. That’s just…upsetting.
Hey the one in the middle,I have a comment on that horse if you ever been around a farm with peruvian paso or Paso fino foals from weanlings to yearlings you will see that they all look about the same they are all just as ugly and poor looking as this colt.Do a search if you do not think I am telling the truth.I worked for one of the biggest breeders in peruvian pasos and I can tell you they are this ugly till they turn 3 to 4 years old before they turn into a beautiful horse.Any farm you look at the babies will all look alot like this colt.I am not defending this horse by no means but have seen over 100 born from one of the best breeders of PP horses.
I just recently found this website and I just want to say you are doing an amazing job. Senseless breeding irritates the hell out of me and it’s the poor horses that suffer in the end. Some people should have a license to own animals!
Thankyou to people about their words about LWOS/OLWS (whatever ou want to call it).
From what I have read, NI is as much to do with the mares as LWOS – you have to take BOTH the dam and stud’s genes into consideration.
You cannot have a horse that is a ‘carrier’ for frame without BEING a frame. The problem is that frame can express as minimally as a white snip or a single blue eye, and people are too lazy to test their horses for it when there is the possibility.
I really doubt that every Paint horse is heterozygous frame. If that were the case there would be far more LWOS foals born. I’m sure there are a lot, but if they all had it you couldn’t breed anything to anything!
There is nothing wrong with gelding a horse that is hetero for frame, since it does reduce the risk that he will be bred to a hetero mare. But if everyone was clued up abot frame and HAD THEIR MARES TESTED there would be no reason why he could not be bred, and poduce some of the flashiest paint patterns out there. The problems occurs when ignorant people who breed purely for colour think breeding two frame horses together will give them a pretty baby.
It is irresponsible to breed a horse with any kind of paint pattern or paint ancestry without being fully aware of the genetic workings of LWOS.
I don’t pretend to be an expert on NI, but from I’ve read, it’s currently thought to be a problem connected with the mare’s blood type? It could have very little, perhaps nothing, to do with the stud himself.
reannon- no misconception. genotype and phenotype are two separate concepts. Geneotype is the actual genetic make-up, phenotype is how the genes are expressed. Because of dominant and recessive traits, the tobiano coat pattern can be expressed as either TT or Tt (there are no visible signs of the overo gene in the Tt horse); if both alleles are tt, then the coat pattern can be various forms of overo or solid-bred. The tovero coat pattern has a genotype of Tt and BOTH overo and tobiano genes are visible in the horse.
In response to witchy and a few others- SHAME ON YOU FOR MAKING ASSUMPTIONS!! I never said how many lethal white foals we had nor did I say what we did with the mares. I am angered that you are so quick to chastize me when you don’t have a fuckin’ clue what happened! We have TWO (2) mares that are carriers for OLWS. Both of them are still here and NEITHER of them are used for breeding. I don’t care if there is a 1/4 chance of producing a carrier and a 0/4 chance of producing a lethal white foal, I want to better our breed, not add to the problem. These mares are still here, have been here for several (10-15) years and will remain here until they die. We will not resell them because we don’t want some greedy bastard to use them for breeding. Again, fugly can be on the inside. Horses can be used for more than just breeding machines and these mares have other uses at our farm. Oh, and by the way, one of these carrier mares is an overo and the other is a TOBIANO.
interesting account of the “jennet”
in South America a jennet was/is a word describing the andalusian derived gaited horses…Campolinas and Marchadors are the variant that exist today…a female donkey is a Jenny….
and you are a bit late finding the “Tiger horses” I remember their creation more than 10 years ago….shudder, but I never did like Apps or pintos anyway…
otherwise carry on !
Kudos to phs for no longer breeding her mares after she found out they were carriers.
It is just plain stupid and irresponsible to continue breeding animals who are carriers of such a detrimental trait. Crossing a carrier with a negative horse gives you a 50% chance of producing another carrier… and the problem is perpetuated.
and to erin: who cares if we lose a colour pattern?? Especially if it is connected to such a detrimental trait? (I guess I just don’t understand why a colour pattern is worth all the pain and extra effort)
I know that I’ve seen “Blu” somewhere before. I think the previous owner may have been a member of a horse forum I visit.
Has anyone seen a photograph of Allan F-1, the foundation TWH stud? Toes pointing in all different directions.
I have a TWH with 6 WGC (world grand champs) on his papers, and no, not the same WGC six times! He is awesomely gaited but not the most beautiful thing, unless you love the gangly TWH build. I prefer the stocky sort myself, meshes better with that big head.
Here are my boys, say what you will, their DNA isn’t going anywhere.
http://freelief.com/temp/zcritique.jpg
http://freelief.com/temp/tcritique.jpg
A beautiful horse can be any breed, and so can a fugly one. I don’t have a problem with people OWNING or RIDING fugly horses, just with those who insist on BREEDING them.
I was wondering with all the slaughter houses closed in the US and I think they made it a law you can not transport horses out of the US for slaughter,what is going to happen to all the horses now.There are only so many resques and I am sure they are full to the brim.I was told by one person they are turning their horses loose and some people turning them loose in the forest.The prices of horses being so cheap and the prices of feed being so high.I know whats happening to a bunch of them here they are starving to death or running loose.I hate to say it but horse slaughter is a needed practice.
I’m not entirely convinced that that second one is actually a horse. Great blog fugly, keep it up!
Why is the concept of removing horses that carry detrimental genes from the breeding pool such a novel idea? Purposefully breeding a horse that carries the gene for a lethal trait just creates more carriers and that is wrong, even if the immediate offspring won’t express the trait.
phs, you deserve an award. I wish all breeders had your attitude.
I don’t want this to turn into a color genetics discussion but, phs, this remark is totally wrong “only in frame overos(which BTW is recessive to the tobiano coat pattern)” – overo is not recessive to tobiano – the only thing that is recessive to T (Tobiano) is t (not tobiano) – Overo and Tobiano are seperate different genes that act independantly to each other. What you may have meant is that you can have a tobiano that is also frame overo with the frame pattern being “hidden” by the tobiano pattern to the eye – however the frame is still there. The same as you said one of the mares that produced the lethal white foal was a tobiano – well, no she wasn’t … or rather yes she was/ is a tobiano but she is ALSO a frame overo. The whole thing is complicated enough without people getting confused by ambiguous or incorrect statements.
I think that breeding paints, especially given the genetics, requires a measure of education and planning – much like breeding anything… personally I don’t see a lot wrong with breeding an excellent quality carrier of OLWS to a non carrier to produce a superior horse.
Frame produces a lot of the white that occurs in paints (calm down now, I’m not saying it is the ONLY pattern that produces color when crossed on a solid horse!), I fear that APHA would begin to lose it’s “breed identity” if you were to cut out all frames.
We did breed a carrier to a carrier once… I have a gorgeous, structurally beautiful filly – loud color. This past year, in a double blow, we lost both her dam (to colic) and her sire (non hereditary breathing problems) in a period of about 4 months… am I glad we did it? Damn right, and she’s not fugly.
“We did breed a carrier to a carrier once… I have a gorgeous, structurally beautiful filly – loud color. “
So amanda, you played “russian roulette” with your horses and lucked out. How admirable.
Just found this site… keep up the good work! It is an undefensable SIN to breed “just because you can”. Every unwanted horse, every neglected tossed out onto the back forty horse, every problem animal was purposfully bred. Ok, there may be accidental breedings, loose horses kinda things, but horses are NOT dogs and cats who roam about at will. People make horses happen, period. A site like this is wonderful, and while it airs our need to vent, may not really change the attitudes of those that are doing the most damage to horses: the IGNORANT breeder… not necessarily of the backyard variety.
Docsscrip – no, transport out of the country for slaughter has not been made illegal.
However, slaughter has never been “necessary.” What is necessary is for people to (a) pry their wallet open and pay for euthanasia if they have an unmarketable horse they no longer want and (b) stop breeding unmarketable crap.
That’s what this blog is about. It’s not ok to send an animal to a horrible death because you don’t want to take care of it anymore or you misjudged your finances. If you don’t have the money to pay for euthanasia, YOU ARE TOO POOR TO OWN A HORSE. Period.
YOU ROCK!!! So nice to find a like-minded person on this subject. Now if I can only get out to Whites Creek and get some pictures of the Fugly TWH’s those morons are breeding…
I have a blog on my MySpace with a similar sentiment (anyone can feel free to pass along, maybe it will make a difference somewhere): http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=36463637&blogID=266068424
That may be true but what about all the starving horses and all the people giving them away and no one will take them.Sure these hicks here are going to pay $200 to $300 to have a vet come out and put them to sleep your dreaming if you think they will they wont even pay to deworm,and buy feed.It maybe a horrible death but it is alot quicker than dieing a slow misserable death of starving which takes weeks sometimes months.Go without eating anything for a few days see what it feels like its not fun.That said I do think if slaughter is the only quicker death these poor horses can go thru then so be it at least they are gone and someone can use the meat to feed themself or their pet,or the zoos.Just my thought about it and you wont change my mind so don’t try!
Starving your horse is illegal. When we crack down on abusers and they start serving jail time for starving their horses, I will bet you that they find the money for euthanasia and/or stop breeding/acquiring horses they can’t afford.
As long as slaughter exists to clean up the messes they make AND put money in their pockets in the process, they will never stop. You have to look at the big picture and the long term effects here. We are giving horse abusers an easy way out where they make money for their bad behavior. That’s sick.
I don’t care about changing your mind. Your mind doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is what Congress does. Call your Senators and Representatives, people!
I was just curious if I could add a few of you to my yahoo or msn, I love discussing horses but there are so few people to talk to these days
. My msn is Fox_Ridge_Ranch@msn.com and my yahoo is evelynnedwards. I hope I get to chat with some of you guys 
. Awesome Forum board!
phs
Not assuming that is why I asked.
I’m hoping that it is just a wording issue because it sounds like you do need some more research on the topic of colors, how they work is not really following what you are saying. Overo(like someone pointed out) is not rec. to Tobiano. If it was you wouldn’t have Homoz Tob Toveros. But we do so it’s not. More then likely your Tobiano carrier is a Tovero but does not look enough like one for you to see that or APHA to count it as such. That happens a lot. The APHA rules confuse the patterns and makes it harder to pick out the patterns if you aren’t well trained in spotting them.
This post was WONDERFUL! your seuss is just excellent! loved the bit about lots of hair- and the ‘if it’s got spots it should be bred’.. heck, i loved it ALL!
You’re bringing public awareness to a topic that has always been out there, but never really center stage. sad, considering that breeding QUALITY should always be have center stage in every breeder’s mind.
more importantly, you are bringing this topic to the fore- giving credit where it’s due, and shame where it’s deserved, and all with humor and sense. All the better to reach a wider audience, making them want to hear more- thereby learning more… and perhaps affect those who should be paying attention.
If you make even ONE person think twice before breeding- or, better yet, make them neuter their animal- you’re a hero. and i’m guessing that you’ve made a lot more than ONE person reconsider.
Hats off to you,
~Zaxy
Like I said, jp. Not sorry for a damn second that we did it. If we hadn’t, I would have nothing left of one of the top broodmares (and stallions!) we’ve ever had on this farm. Beautiful mare inside (even being an OLWS carrier, lol) and out! Not sorry either! Maybe not proud, but definitely not sorry. Sorry if that offends some!
Now if I ever were to breed her (which is questionable), it would be to a non carrier, and I’m not sorry for that either. Like I said, we don’t breed OLWS carriers together anymore – all it takes is one of those babies to break your heart, but have in the past.
I’d be interested in fugly doing a piece on OLWS and talk to actual paint breeders – not your garden variety, but the kind of breeders who breed top quality show horses, and see what their opinions and takes on OLWS are. So often, people who don’t know the firsthand genetics “hands on” of OLWS have misconceptions about them. It’s so easy to just do your homework instead of jumping on the ‘inside fugly’ bandwagon.
I also think it’s important to recognize the industry side of horses, as much as some of us romantics hate to recognize it. For some people, GOOD QUALITY horses are a commodity – they may not be as in love with their horses as we are… therefore, 25% (or more!) of their foal crop is an “acceptable risk”.
Not condoning it, just pointing it out. I have stood on both sides, working in a racehorse environment where you mass produce (and really, I think the flood of horses on the market is due to poor racehorse breeding – fugly could you talk about thoroughbred racehorses maybe and how they’re built to break down at 3??), and a loss is acceptable because you have 50 other foals to fill that spot, but now only work in a pleasure horse environment that is a little less cutthroat.
Amanda, I’m not sure a TB racehorse is built to break down at 3. However, when you break something out at 16 months or so, I can almost GUARANTEE you it will break down at 3!
They are simply sat on WAY too early and run WAY too early and that is why so many of them shatter legs and die on the track. It is disgusting. I am not anti-racing but I do not think it should be legal to race 2 year olds. For that matter, I don’t think it should be legal to have 2 year old snaffle bit futurities, because it causes the same early riding and the same, accompanying, early breakdown. If I had a quarter for every 10 year old totally crippled ex-futurity-wunderkind I come into contact with, I’d have a super nice horse farm by now!
“Sure these hicks here are going to pay $200 to $300 to have a vet come out and put them to sleep your dreaming if you think they will they wont even pay to deworm,and buy feed.”
A bullet costs ten cents.
Yep sure does but that is animal cruelty and it is easier for them to just turn them loose and let them fend for themselves or at least they are still bringing $50 to $300 at the local auctions.
Starving your horse is illegal. When we crack down on abusers and they start serving jail time for starving their horses
Yes I am sure it is but that wont change anything,if they are scared they will get cought they turn them loose.Alot of places its too late when they do find the horses (many big farms easy to hide them)the horses are already so close to death and dieing.Just wait to see what happens when these horses do not get fed this winter.SAD There will be all kinds of free horses out there.
Just to set the record straight on LWO.
ONLY Frame carries it.
NO other colour or lack of pattern carries it.
Sabino does not carry LWO
Splash does not carry LWO
Tobiano does not carry LWO.
In it’s h/Z form it is harmless.
There is NO reason why h/Z animals cannot be bred to non carriers at all, no reason.
If you cut them out of your programme because they are LWO h/Z OK, fine, your choice but you are not actually accomplishing anything.
It is not like HYPD when the animal is affected by the disease even in h/Z form.
A h/Z LWO animal is totally, completely normal.
All it takes is testing EVERY Pinto before breeding.
Tests cost $25.00.
What is the problem????
How is shooting a horse animal cruelty? Muzzle to forehead, BANG, and it’s over.
I know of a VERY respected breeder who had a customer’s broodmare on her property waiting to foal. The horse slipped in the pasture and broke its leg. Rather than letting it lay there in pain until the vet got there, she went to the house, got her shot gun, and ended it right there.
This was animal cruelty?
It wouldn’t be any different for a horse that somebody wanted to put down but couldn’t afford. The needle does the exact same thing, without the loud bang.
Obviously I would prefer to spend the extra $300 for my horses, but really only for my own sanity. It will make no difference to them. If they needed put down because of a catastrophic injury, I’d send my trainer to get his hunting rifle rather than letting them wait for the vet. And I’d DEFINITELY do the hunting rifle if for some reason I had to choose between that and letting them fend for themselves in the woods.
Well around here if you shoot a dog in missery you will be charged for animal cruelty I figured ot wouldn’t be any different for a horse that there is nothing wrong with other than your lack of humanity and feed them.If you want them you should feed them that is what I was always told.
Shooting them in the head is perfectly humane assuming you do it right and with an appropriate weapon. Sending them to slaughter is not. That’s why the latter needs to be made illegal.
I am in the UK so shooting an animal or even humanely destroying it by other means is illegal unless you are licensed to do so.
I have to say up front I have NO problem with a horse being eaten once it is dead.
That being said all my horses papers and passports are stamped “Not for human consumption” merely because, under EU regulations, if this were not done, the animal could not be given certain drugs.
There is also the slim chance that this might prevent a stolen horse or a sold on horse form being sold alive for export.
OK sorry for the diversion!!
I love this blog- even if I do not always agree- is that not what discussion is for??
I do think that stopping slaughter of horses is not the way to go, that making ALL “food” animals be treated with respect and care IS the way to go.
I am absolutely certain that closing slaughter houses will come back and bite you in the bum (backside not hobo- sometimes I forget the language difference)
My knacker man does not own a house- he does all his work on farm or fallen stock and he makes a good living at it, but he is also against closing slaughterhouses- he believes, as I do, that they should be forced to be humane- he has no problem doing it, why can they get away with it??
The rules and regulations for both parties are the same.
It depends on how it’s being done. My understanding is that in Europe, there are slaughterhouses where you can personally deliver the animal and they shoot it in the head. OK, fine. In America, it’s not like that. We have a system where someone throws 80 horses in a double decker, smooshed like sardines, falling down, dying in transit, being severely injured, etc. no water, 2-3 days on the truck, chased into a chute and then some minimum wage loser swings a captive bolt at them and sometimes misses a bunch of times. I have video of this. It’s not pretty, or humane, or okay. Remember that Europe is a lot smaller than the U.S. and you simply don’t have the same transport issues.
To kirri – it is interesting that you note that your personal horses are “Not for human consumption” due to the drugs they have been given.
Almost every horse in the US is not for human consumption either – haven been given any number of drugs in its lifetime from pesticides and dewormers, steriods, bute, lasix, and who knows what else.
But guess what? Our horses are being eaten. Not by Americans though….its illegal to eat horses here…they are “not USDA approved”. Yet, its perfectly ok (sarcasm intended) to package them up and ship them overseas for other countries, such as your neighbors in Belgium and France, to consume.
I have always wondered if the way to stop horse slaughter in our country is to simply publicize this fact in the countries that are importing the meat, rather than focusing our efforts here.
I believe there is NO difference in either shooting your horse, or calling the vet, it’s personal preference. What I WON”T do is to send a horse to the slaughter house.
If you are responsible for that animal till the end, which you should be if you buy it, then you should have the decency to see it through and be with it till the very end.
I can’t imagine the last moments of my horse being the horror of a slaughterhouse, it makes me sick to my stomach to think about.
When we put our ancient paint mare down last year, she was calm and happy up till the bullet went into her brain.
I agree with no fugly horses being bred.
I agree that the current state of horse slaughter is horrific.
I do everything in my power to make sure that my current gelding will not become anyone’s horse sandwich (registered/brand/training/someone to look after him if something happened to me).
I do have questions; feel free to give a shot at answering.
1. Why do European’s buy our horse-meat – as one poster suggested – do they not realize the contaminants that are in the flesh of horses produced in North America? Surely someone has mentioned this before?
2. What are deadstock removal people? We have one in our area and I’m not 100% what they do? Also will deadstock pick up animals that have been euthanized with Pentobarbital which the AVMA considers the best choice for equine euth. (They also consider Physical methods, including gunshot, conditionally acceptable techniques for equineeuthanasia. The penetrating captive bolt is acceptable with appropriate restraint.)
3. I imagine there will still be auctions (that is not being outlawed?); so what is the issue with the “horses being left to starve in fields”. These “hillbillies” will still take their horses down to local auctions and run them through; sure they’ll get their $50.00 for their nag; I see the people being penalized here as the auction houses – I’m sure plenty of people will pony up the entry fee for the sale and walk away – when the horse doesn’t sell; they’ll just leave it at the auction yard – someone will have to feed it; then I see the auction houses raising fees to restrict what enters the sale and what doesn’t. Eventually there will not be a market for the nags (I hope not) and quality horses will prevail – I hope; but I do think it will be a long time coming.
4. Has anyone actually priced a euth and deadstock pick up or euth and burial or euth and cremation? I honestly don’t know what the price is here (in Canada).
Thanks for anyone who weighs in on my questions – just trying to clarify some stuff for myself and friends.
All my horses are technically “deadstock”
No animal that is not killed in a slaughterhouse can go for human consumption, although there is still a demand for dog meat.
The UK may be smaller than America but Europe is not.
Thanks to your closing the slaughterhouses horses can now look forward to be transported as far as Argentina and thence onto boats and transported to Italy where, if they are lucky, they will be shot.
If they are not lucky they will be transported onwards to God alone knows where.
Laws are only enforced on law abiding people- these bastards get away with it simply because they do not care if they are caught.
They pay the fines, often not enforced anyway, shrug and get on with it.
People from ILPH have had their lives threatened and been bullied, hassled and even beaten up, when filming.
The way forward is to open GOOD, clean, humane slaughterhouses where people can “offload” these sad by products.
You are never going to stop the Racehorse industry.
We have a law in place that all horses have the right to graze- do you think for one moment it s ever going to be enforced??
We need laws that are enforceable- double deckers are illegal for Equine transport so they are not used, end of story.
It is illegal to transport stallion loose with mares, this is rarely done, Police do stop transporters and check- POLICE not Animal Welfare.
We are an enclosed Island, so Policing our boundaries is relatively easy, until recently horses were transported over to Southern Ireland but they have tightened up now and, although there is still some nastiness it is getting less.
Should we start another thread on this, Ugly, I am very keen to carry on the discussion but it is OFF TOPIC big time!!!
Schwung said: “But guess what? Our horses are being eaten. Not by Americans though….its illegal to eat horses here…they are “not USDA approved”. “
Just as a point of fact, it is NOT illegal to eat horse meat in the United States. It is only illegal to buy/sell it commercially for human consumption in most states. But if you just had possession of some and consumed it, that would be perfectly legal. As well as slaughtering your own horses for private consumption. You just couldn’t sell it in the corner market, that’s all.
You’re stealing images and if you do not cease I will be pressing charges.
Nah, you won’t. We’ve had this discussion on this blog already.